Some questions and comments

[spencerpi]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the forum here, first post et all so go easy on me. I've been quietly reading these forums for a few weeks during lunch. I'm a software developer with a company in Belgium. We're into medical software, radiology mostly.

I used to run OS/2 Warp waaay back when before I turned to the dark side. At work we use a Windows based 4GL development tool against an Oracle backend. This tool doesn't work on any other platform besides Windows. I have a desktop at work and a laptop for the occasional meeting preparation and do-overtime-programming-at-home.

Because of the development tool, everyone else at work being on Windows/Office and our entire customerbase being on Windows there really is no choice when it comes to an os. Also, customer's databases grow to several terabytes so an open source database can not handle this.

I'm on Windows 2000 now which gets the job done. I have no experience with Linux but I might setup a separate partition when/if I buy a new desktop pc at home.

I have a few questions for all of you. It might sound like I'm Windows biased. Trust me I'm not. Read the first paragraphs again : there is no choice for something else for me, at this moment.

Microsoft has a monopoly. They got there in a dodgy way and they have been delivering dodgy programs ever since. However, think of all the companies which use Windows every day, who write and sell software for it ... there is an entire economy behind it. Not only does Microsoft make zillions of dollars, there's loads of companies developing and selling Windows based software, making a living from it, putting huge amounts of people at work.

Now, I realize that there are loads of people programming away at Linux to make it better and more secure and they do it for free but how do you think the world would look if tomorrow all Microsoft software failed ?

So, from today onto tomorrow : wham, all MS stuff no longer works. Basicly : this is your chance because Linux will then become a big player.

Will it remain free or will Linux and other os's start competing to get that monopoly position ?

There's always talk here about how the open source community programs for free. What about the millions of people who are out of a job and can no longer make a living doing programming/support/helpdesk/whatever because there is no more Windows and the Linux community is free ?

Also, with every Windows programmer being unemployed now they start programming bits and bobs for Linux. How long would it take before Linux becomes a really unstable piece of software because so many different people are working on it ? Do you think there would be a governing institute safeguarding the stability of Linux because I don't see it working otherwise.

I have 10 people in my team at work, programming on the same program. I know how hard it is to keep the lot stable. And that's just 10 people, in the same room.

Personally I don't want to program for free. I have a house loan to pay, the girlfriend and me have to eat etc. What is your solution for guys like me whose income now depends on being a developer for the Microsoft Windows platform when Linux would suddenly take over the desktop and server world ?

I'm trying to get a civilized discussion going so please ... play nice.

[flap]

If Microsoft literally disappeared tomorrow the world might be a little confused for a while as they grew accustomed to using the alternatives, but I guarantee within a few years it would be a far better place for it.

 

quote:Will it remain free or will Linux and other os's start competing to get that monopoly position ?

It doesn't matter if they do. Because GNU/Linux is free software, it's effectively impossible for anyone company to have a monopoly, either on the code or the support for the software. This freedom is guaranteed by the GPL so there's no way it can ever become non-free.

 

quote:What about the millions of people who are out of a job and can no longer make a living doing programming/support/helpdesk/whatever because there is no more Windows and the Linux community is free ?

They can get jobs supporting/selling/developing for the alternatives.

 

quote:How long would it take before Linux becomes a really unstable piece of software because so many different people are working on it ?

There are already a lot of people working on the Linux kernel, and many other free software projects as well. It's not a free-for-all; these projects do tend to have people deciding what code does and doesn't go into the software. And as has been shown time and time again, having the source audited by a potentially limitless audience can only make it better. Many eyes make code better; not worse. Imagine if, in addition to the 10 people you have on your team, you also had dozens or hundreds of people emailing you patches and bug-fixes for the software you develop?

 

quote:Personally I don't want to program for free. I have a house loan to pay, the girlfriend and me have to eat etc. What is your solution for guys like me whose income now depends on being a developer for the Microsoft Windows platform when Linux would suddenly take over the desktop and server world ?

You shouldn't have to. Free software is about freedom, not price. You should be free to sell your software and charge for support for it, but not to restrict people's right to copy. There are a few examples of companies that are already pursuing successful business models based on the development of distribution of free software - Red Hat being the most obvious example.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html

[suselinux]

I have never wasted time thinking about all MS stuff
going belly up all at once, besides anything that is mission critical would be running on a M Critical OS
Unix/Linux so desktops might shut down but thats about it.

What I do often think about though is the big distros RedHat, United Linux Group, Lycoris, Mandrake using some legal finagling to add a copyright to code other than the Kernel

Red Hat charging for every RPM packager

SuSE including Yast2 only in box sets

Or GUI's (KDE Gnome)  putting up adds every where


etc etc

Thats what I think about.  

[Calum]

quote:Also, customer's databases grow to several terabytes so an open source database can not handle this.

this sets the tone for your attitude (and i mean attitude), i skimmed the rest of your post because why should i waste my time trying to convince somebody who has these moronic preconceptions?
dn't get me wrong, i'm not angry at you or anything, you seem like a sensible chap but the world will not move forward if people keep saying these stupid closed minded things to each other.

basically your point of contention here is that you want somebody else to do all the work for you so you can use linux at no cost whatsoever, well tough. some people are lucky, all the things they want their computer to do are easy in linux. this covers many people, but not all. if you want something done so it works in linux, and nobody has done it yet, then opportunity knocks. you have to give to get sometimes.

as for this dumbass notion you have that you will be out of a job when the revolution comes, i think that is just fear talking. the next wave of open source development will be exactly the same as how software companies usually work, with companies paying programmers to program, but the companies will be releasing the software under slightly different licencing agreements. this is of no interest (apart from an academic one) to the programmers concerned.

as for this "bam windows programs don't work tomorrow" thing, wait five years. i hear microsoft are planning just such a strategy to try and force not only a software upgrade but a hardware upgrade too in order to wring more money and more personal data from you, the loyal user.

[Faust]

quote:go easy on me

You're making that *really* difficult by insulting such a kick-arse OS.

 

quote:4GL

From kcore, 1GL=binary, 2GL=assembly, 3GL=C etcetera, 4GL=visual basic/visual C++ etcetera.  Am I right?  

 

quote:Also, customer's databases grow to several terabytes so an open source database can not handle this.

erm...  yes they can...  CASA, the Civil Air Safety ppl use linux for their databases and I'm willing to bet that they're databases are bigger than your databases.  But then again I guess you wouldnt know any different if you had

quote:no experience with Linux.

and all the evidence you had to base your arguments on was Windows FUD.

 

quote:They got there in a dodgy way and they have been delivering dodgy programs ever since.

 

quote:putting huge amounts of people at work.

 So if I sell you a car that doesnt work its ok because Im working yeah?  Cool now Im going to sell little kids heroin and then tell everyone - "its OK!  Im actually helping our economy by hiring runners and dealers!"

 

quote:Linux will then become a big player.

Linux _is_ a big player, we own 60% of all web servers last time I checked bucko.  The _only_ area we we dont have a sizable market foothold is the desktop arena and we're better there too.  Why? Because we're BETTER.

 

quote:Will it remain free

Ok heres the deal-you actually read www.gnu.org at some point so you know what you're talking about, *then* you come back.    

 

quote:Do you think there would be a governing institute safeguarding the stability of Linux

What you mean like Linus approving or rejecting new inclusions in the kernel code?  Already happens.

 

quote:I have 10 people in my team at work, programming on the same program. I know how hard it is to keep the lot stable. And that's just 10 people, in the same room

Too many cooks?  My thought is that it only works when all the programmers nominate an approver/rejecter.  Otherwise everyone adds their favorite spice to the stew and you end up with a very spicy stew.  If linux is so unstable then ask yourself why the Stock Market computers run a gnu/linux software / hewlett packard hardware combo?  Ask why the first post about the new Mozilla build asks people to "_try_ and crash it" instead of Internet Explorers standard "ok so we kinda crash every few hours."  If linux is so unstable then why do I have a debian package containing a program whos *only* task is to constantly stress test a system and _try_ to crash it?  Linux is stable.  Linux is _VERY_ stable.  Read the cathedral and the bazaar by Eric S Raymond to find out why Linux is so stable.

And you _can_ get paid for developing Free software (note the capital.)  I happily paid $25 for my Debian CDs.  I happily paid $10 for my slackware CD.  I bought them through www.everythinglinux.com because I _want_ to support Linux.  My belief is that people actually want to support good products, and will only not pay if its not worth the money - which is why everyone pirates windows rather than pay for it.  I also have _WELL_ over $1000 of music cds sitting on my bench.  Thats a lot of money of cds.  How did I find out what CDs to get, what bands I like?  By downloading MP3 samplers from P2P networks.  Advertising good products and warning about bad products is what Free products and pirated products achieve.  If you still dont believe me then look at Red Hat Linux.  They make MILLIONS and they make Free software.  Millions may not be much compared to Microsofts Billions, but Microsoft owns 90% of the market and Red Hat owns what, less than 1%?  When you look at it in terms of profit/expenditure ratios linux makes much more commercial sense.  and you can profit *without* shafting the customer.

I hope you dont take that as a flame...  I would be interested in hearing your response.  Try that linux distro on a desktop.  Just give it a _try_ at the least. Any one linux user here would gladly help you if you had any linux problems, they helped me with mine.      However please keep just one thing in mind -

_LINUX IS BETTER_

           

Hope you have fun exploring the world of GNU, whether your work does or not.  

[Faust]

quote:all MS stuff no longer works

It works now?   :eek:  

BTW re: the "unstable/too many cooks" argument.  With linux if the cooks are uncoordinated, yes they will cook up a crappy product.  Lets assume a project with bad co-ordination will cook up a really shitty web browser.  What happens then is I say "fuck this" and use a different web browser. That simple. I get to _choose_ what I use, unlike windows where you WILL use Internet Explorer and you WILL use Office because those .doc documents cant work with anything else.  When I can choose what to use why would I use something that doesnt work?

[flap]

I think you're going a bit hard on him there.

 

quote:the Civil Air Safety ppl use linux for their databases and I'm willing to bet that they're databases are bigger than your databases

They may use the GNU/Linux operating system but they don't necessarily use a free DBMS, which is what I think he's talking about. I have no idea what the limits of Postgresql (or any other FS DBMS that may exist) are so he may be right.

But you're right, there's no reason why he couldn't run a different, non-free, DBMS (such as Oracle) on GNU/Linux.

[Faust]

quote:I think you're going a bit hard on him there.

Sorry, I thought I was being civil but maybe I lost it.  :rolleyes:  

As I said M505 don't think I'm flaming you,  I really am interested in your thoughts.

[Calum]

you didn't lose it.

where at any point did faust say anything out of line? i agree with every word faust said and do not see anything unreasonable in it.

[spencerpi]

Hi guys,

Some good answers here, thanks. The 4GL is called Centura and it just doesn't exist on Linux. It's a client/server tool, Windows front end and we use Oracle as backend on a variety of servers. Mostly we run it on which os the customer's server is running.

I WILL go for that Linux partition, you guys are too convincing for me.    A friend of mine is running Gentoo already. I'm going to try that and learn the basics from him.

Thx again.

[Faust]

Gentoo is icky, stick with mandrake (or if you insist red hat) for a first time.  From what I hear Gentoo just sucks, but I am glad you've been convinced!