Why Microsoft will always be king

[Calum]

yeah that's right, it's not as if you get better, faster and more helpful support from most large linux vendors for their products, than you get from microsoft for windows.

i will refrain from commenting on the concept of a company that charges by the minute for support.

avid, who gives a shit? you fail to add anything new, and while you seem quite intelligent, your apathy is exactly why people do not innovate, why they just make the world boring and commonplace.

true innovators, all the people who have moved us forward as a species, do not and did not ever, think in such an apathetic manner as you seem to think is the only correct way to be.

[creedon]

quote:Originally posted by Windows XP User #5225982375:
avid007, I'm one of the only people here who thinks Microsoft actually makes a good product (for home use, anyway) and even I don't believe that Microsoft is invulnerable, monopoly though it may be.  Fact is, Steve Ballmer has publicly made it clear that Linux is the most worrisome problem Microsoft has ever faced.  Since it isn't a company, more of a phenomenon, none of Microsoft's tactics seem to work on it.  To think, people giving software away for free??!?? Steve can barely comprehend the notion itself, although he is beginning to pretend to cozy up to the idea, even going so far as to say he "loves open source."  For him I imagine it's like cuddling up in bed with a pit viper.  Before Linux came on the scene, the idea that people would actually give away software to combat Microsoft hadn't entered into even his darkest thoughts.  After using some of the later versions of Linux myself, I have a feeling that Microsoft, and Apple for that matter, should be very wary of its progress.  It only takes a couple of extra steps, and bam!  No more proprietary operating systems.  So, in my opinion, Microsoft is not invulnerable, even on the desktop.  All they need to do is get complacent or make one wrong move (palladium, perhaps?) and it's over for them.  I think it's great, since now we have something that will drive Microsoft to make even better products than it already does, and so even though it may stay around it will be stronger in the long run because of things like Linux.

WOW XP; I'm impressed- you're really starting to make sense, and you're actually saying GOOD thigs about Linux.  
You're echoing what I think; as an OS, Windows whatever is what you make of it.  For a new computer user, it's cake (no thinking involved)  It does have stability problems, but I think a lot of that is the proprietary aspect that MS is forced to use.  My biggest issue with Microsoft is their ruthless business practices; they seem to be willing to degrade their own product to make it difficult (or impossible) for anyone to create applications that can be used on a Windows system, and NOT be owned by Microsoft (or at least licenced by Microsoft).  My box is free of MS; I removed WIN98 and I am going to replace it with an OS that doesn't have the "money before all else" philosophy that MS has.  This doesn't mean that I'll have an OS that's more convenient than Windows; I don't think very many users would say that Linux is all that convenient, but I will be away from a philosophy of greed that seems to pervade anything Microsoft touches.

[voidmain]

I think this kid is just nervous because he spent all that money on his Microsoft crap and he doesn't want to be the last one left to use it. So he has to spread FUD. I guess he can't read. My kids have no trouble using Linux. My parents have no trouble using Linux. They are the most computer illiterate people on this earth and have no trouble.

I am using RedHat, downloaded for free (I don't know where this lining peoples pockets FUD come from). Then he insults my mother. Typical Microsoft user. Does Bill Gates have kids? Maybe this is one of his creations.

[KernelPanic]

quote:Originally posted by avid007:
>>You come on here and say that we are wasting our time for a cause that doesn't exist. What is it that you think you are doing here?

I am simply getting on your nerves because you know I am right.  Plus, I was bored tonight.  

>>I don't know what Redhat did. I can still download Redhat for free from their site, what did they do?

You know exactly what they did.  They sold the fuck out!  Go to a Linux conference...ask anybody who has been here a while.  It ain't techy cool anymore.  It's all business now.  All the causers just contributed to the wallets of someone else.

You know that is true.  Let anybody tell  me that Linux conferences aren't all business now.

I'm just saying know who you are working for.

-avid007

Linux conferences tend to be about business. For most of their larger ones this is their aim, corporates selling their products.

But....

This is linux, there is a flip side of the coin. There are still 'geeky' little meetings and there are plenty of little LUG's around. Yes there are large compnay's behind distributions, but yes there are many other less-well know distributions being used.

If you want something and don't want to look for it, you don't really want it. If you want any easy OS go get Mandrake/RedHat. If you want a difficult OS go and serach for one you like.
Hell, why not compile everything from the start?

But seriously, what the fuck do you want. Linux needs these businesses for success, and linux needs the geeks to be linux. Geeks don't like corporations and corporation dont like geeks. That is why linux's attack on the market is happening on two fronts.

Linux can be simple, linux can be hard, linux can be big, linux can be small. Just get what you want, that's the point what you want.

Also are you too young/stupid to understand that a large company or government agency doesnt want to use a product with no real backing behind it in their eyes?

Welcome to MES though dude, you're not that bad methinks. At least you're not XP luser  

[SpaceMonkey]

it is far too easy for people to conform to the m$ standard. as long as people have a desire to be in control of their own systems Linux will always have a home. if people like us didnt exist, M$ probably would have already won the war. No..our great war is no longer a spiritual one..it has become digital as well.

[RudeCat7]

quote: I'm just saying know who you are working for.

 

I work for the Penguin, and the benefits are great!
Free software, and all the web-browsing I can handle. The hands-on training program is great, it's really challenging!    

I used to work for microsoft, but I had to pay them, and if anything went wrong, they usually said it was my fault! And as far as training, goes, they just said, "...click the pretty little icon, and it'll do something, you don't need to know why and how, o.k.?"
 

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: RudeCat7 ]

[lazygamer]

Suddenly what avid said about Redhat is starting to get to me.

-39.95 for personal edition, cool.
-149.95 for professional edition, it starts to get a little pricey, still acceptable but with a raised eybrow.
-799.00 for advanced server, outrageous!
-1499.00 for advanced server V2.1 standard edition, ghastly!
-2499.00 for advanced server V2.1 premium edition, that is hellish!

Something is seriously wrong here. An open source, free software, once small company charging 2499.00 for software? Can anyone here explain why Redhat should not have stones thrown at them for such traitorous practices?

[voidmain]

Lazy, that price is for commercial support. You can get the software for free if you don't care about support.

[flap]

And you're missing the point of Free Software. RedHat charging high prices for support or even for distributing their software is great if it keeps them in business, and it belies the myth that F.S. won't pay the bills. Regardless of what RedHat charges for their software/support, you're still free to change/distribute it at will once you have it.

[lazygamer]

Yes, but you can't download their special 799.00+ editions off their site... unless im wrong. Of course it may be possible to just grab an .iso from a third party site. I dunno, something about 799.00 for support seems like quite a rip-off. Unless that's more of a very long term support thing, and there would be a market for that in the corps(they will pay for ease of use, and tons of support is ease of use).

At least Redhat is selling support and not proprietary secrets. I mean the way free software works, I could download a pirated .iso of their $2400 server thingy, then burn it, then sell if for $50... 100% legally! Although some of the hardcore Linux purists would give me evil eyes.  

I just wonder why they don't provide free downloads for EVERYTHING(just with no support) to save people the trouble of finding a pirated version. My guess is that they intentionally give you an excellent but not as rich version for free, and hope you'll just pay them to save the hassle(if you want the really powerful stuff). I mean the downloadable Redhat is probably not the same(in terms of extras) as the $139.00 professional edition.

Question is, are pirated versions of something like the $2400 Redhat alot easier to find then something like a pirated version of wind0ze? Of course this is not an issue for me, the shit they offer from the mainsite of a Linux distro will always be plenty for me.

[flap]

Firstly, I know nothing about RedHat's Advanced Server distributions, but if it's all GPL or similarly licenced software then, regardless of whether or not they make free downloads available, it's legal for anyone else to make isos available elsewhere. If you sold an iso of their OS, provided it is all GPL software, it would be perfectly legal and thus wouldn't be 'pirated', and there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with you selling it for $50.

Whether or not companies make their GPL'd free software available for easy download as isos, or they decide to charge a million dollars, it doesn't matter as the software is guaranteed by the GPL to be completely, unambiguously Free once it's been distributed.

I know it's been said a million times but you have to stop asking the question "How can it be 'free' when it costs $2500?" and think in terms of speech, not beer.

[lazygamer]

Well im getting better at this free software concept, and even the free speech thing. I just had a little trouble understanding those hefty price tags.  

[voidmain]

Actually they do provide more than just support in the Avanced Server versions but that is the bulk of it. Wide scale enterprise support is the bulk of it. They also used to specially tune the kernel to run Oracle (Oracle is not Free Software, and if you think RedHat Advanced Server is expensive, check into Oracle licenses. RedHat prices look like a pimple on a giant's ass next to Oracle pricing).

They also provide RedHat cluster manager (something you certainly have no use for). But you can also cluster using RedHat using Free clustering utilities. I don't see what the complaint is. They are a company, they do have to pull in revenue. They are basically giving you the equivelant of Windows XP Server, SQL Server, Terminal Server, Exchange, Office, Visual Studio, etc, etc, etc. You want support directly from RedHat you pay for it.

I used a LOT of RedHat at the last large corporation I worked for. We used the download version of RedHat exclusively and did not purchase support (we had a tight budget so you can do a lot with free/Free). I have my own home brewed method of doing web server clustering and we didn't need to do any application clustering. Believe me, it would be rare that you as a user (and even as a small business) would need anything more than the download version. Large companies with big budgets may want/need the commercial support and proprietary database clustering capabilities.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]

[HibbeeBoy]

I'll just pop my nose in. IE as the browser of choice ? This part of Windows I could do without. There are many reasons why people are making the switch from M$, for home use, this is one of them. I don't want my machine compromised with IE sending out statistics and Gawd knows what else back to the mothership. As an IT decision maker, the switch to Linux is very much on at the corporate level for cost effectiveness, security, stability and support. Also, (I know not everyone like IBM) IBM are embracing Linux with their Midrange server line such as the iSeries (AS400) which is the platform in use where I work.
At last, after 20 years in IT, something interesting is happening.

[distortion]

quote:Originally posted by avid007:
No solid AD structure.  
-avid007

i dont know if this has already been said, because i've yet to take the time to read the two pages of posts, but:

did you know that AD is a ripoff of something called NDS?

i dont quite remember who created this, but i think it was novell.