Microsoft and donations.

[voidmain]

If neither of us know Billy's true personal motives as you claim, then you have no more right to speak highly of him as a person than I have to speak lowly of him. I have to presume that he has a "small" amount of influence at M$ and that M$'s actions as a company have to be reflections of Billy's personal beliefs. He built the company, the company does nothing without his approval or direction. Nobody farts at M$ without Billy telling them to.

And "Evil Empire" is not a new word for MS, I've been using it for many years, and I certainly wasn't the first.

[pkd_lives]

So here is a thought, or two.

There are companies always upgrading. So why don't they offer all those P1XX and 486, etc. with old software to school? They could buy up bankrupt stock at a fraction of the price M$ will charge for software upgrade. And Linux can still run on older machines. So you loose a little speed, hell you kill more birds with that stone, because the kids cannot, or will have a slow time, using the school comps. for games and internet.

Kids need exposure to computers and the general details of how they work, processor; hard drive; external peripherals; OS's; interfaces; apps, etc. They DO NOT need the latest killer apps, or tech. At college it's different, there you are, in theory at least, being taught about how this stuff is in the 'real world'.

Companies should be encouraged to throw off their old stuff at schools. I remember working on engineering draughting tables donated by a local company, because they were deemed too old, and worn. The schools didn't care, they were free and added to the schools options. The local business got a local school taking more notice of engineering, it's called positive feedback. Business has always fed education from it's back end, and it is a system that works. Tech areas get tech biased school leavers. This has been shown time and again in demographics across the world.

Too many companies have forgotten that schools are where their next staff come from. You want to know why your recent recruits are lame, slow, uneducated, inept at individual thought, or why there are so few of them with actual skills, it's because their world is being swallowed by big business, donating their products (not money - THEIR FUCKING PRODUCTS), and sapping their creative energies.

This is it kids, this is what the world is. WHAT say the kids ELSE is there? Nothing this is all WE have. Then whats the fucking point of ME trying, if this already exists all over the world? M$ should not be allowed to donate product. If they truly give a shit about the future education of our kids, they should donate money. Giving products is only acceptable at local levels, and only on older equipment. Schools need facilities, better paid staff, another computer is not going to solve the problems, but to hear M$ tell it they are saving our schools.

That's better, got it off my chest - repeat after me - MUST NOT READ M$ PROMOTIONAL LITERATURE.

[Master of Reality]

you seem to be contridicting yourself?
you said that it works when companies donate their old worn products, but when it comes to M$ donating their products its a bad thing (which is true).
But if companies do through their old stuff to schools, then students will be learning on older obsolete equipment that they will never need to know about in the workplace. If i was taught using out of date information then i wouldnt be able to understand a lot of the new info that is in use today by campanies and businesses. Windows donating their products, even if they are new, will not help the students very much at all. Their products are constantly/perpetually upgrading and their last OS is always made obsolete by making the software incompatible in most places. Linux, however, does not do this at all. I believe that voidmain is using redhat 6.2 with the newest version of squid (maybe). New apps in Linux will usually work with the older products of Linux, they dont change a major component just to make the new apps incompatible with their last OS and ofrce users to upgrade. MS  forces schools to give them a big profit just by donating their products. MS give 100 computers, next year MS comes out with new OS, make old one obsolete by changing their standards and the schools thinks, "we already have windows, so we should just upgrade it". That makes MS break-even on their donation, next year the same thing happens and MS make 100% profit off their donation. My school still uses win95, and all the teachers make up excuses why it doesnt work properly, but really our school cant afford to upgrade. I think my school has upgraded about half the computers to win98, i dont know what the servers at my school are, but they go down every day.
Schools shouldn't really accept donations, unless it is money to buy products which the student might be using in the workplace(or something that will be free to upgrade, such as Linux).

[Master of Reality]

its now a rave about donations

[Master of Reality]

quote:Originally posted by Ctrl Alt Del 123:
VoidMain, I don't know him any better than you do. I don;t truely know if it's comming from the bottom of his heart or now, it could very well not. But just because you simply cannot stand the guy, doesn't mean he's ALL evil. To you, you only know him for his evil empire called MS, nothing else.

New word for MS: Evil empire.

evil is the ability to do harm not without remorse, but despite remorse.
He doesnt feel any remorse therefore he isnt evil.... he's just cruel and soul/heartless

[pkd_lives]

Sorry to rant, just got a little carried awy with the subject matter, and a little stressed currently.

I agree there is a certain requirement for up to date computer tech. But it seems most of the computer donations (as I am searching M$ giving site, and web, uurrghh) are for the poorer state run schools, not the technology sector training schools (where requirements are different). So here we are teaching basic theory. A computer built by Sir Clive Sinclair runs on theory that still has relevance today (not that I advocate the use of ZX81 in school... hmmm... thinks). Of course this is extreme.

To make myself a case in point. I am EE, not a software guy. The equipment I had at school was never up to the standard of the lowest most miserable firm I have ever worked for. Yet I survived.

I agree with your Linux comments. Going from Linux to Windows is easier (I guess) than the other way, therefore, train kids the hardest way,  they will learn more, at seriously lower expense. Another reason I advocate old equipment. It takes you back to a more basic level. You learn more in calculus when you first learn to differentiate from first principles, although you always use the short cut, your understanding is better, so I am an advocate of older tech at schools.

I have no probs with old tech. from any business, it's pumping up front-end products that I find abhorent to my beliefs - it's product placement, nothing else.

I hope this clarifies my position on this subject. Charity is good, but I personally require a sense of motivation from the giver that is not a commercial attitude.

[Ctrl Alt Del 123]

VoidMan, from what I've read (have to include that) he seems to atleast donate to help others that aren't as fortunate. Be it he's donating his own products or simply money.

I'm sorry if you think that I high him in high reguard, I really don't. I place Linus Torvolds MUCH higher than Bill Gates. I've read many interviews from Linus and Bill for a school project, and Linus is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more down to earth, unlike Bill who's mind has been warped by busines and greed ($).

However, his products I don't mind as much. Keep in mind I embrace Linux and Macs. I'm all for choice and FREE. And if I was to run web site, there's no way in hell I'd run it on IIS.

[voidmain]

CTRL, as I mentioned I might have had you figured wrong.  And if I did, I am sorry.  But like you eluded, if Bill is "giving" away M$ products. That is *not* charity.  And if he is giving away money, it is "possible" that he may be doing it out of the kindness of his heart.  But I seriously suspect it is more likely that he is doing it for either a tax break, to get some of the bad public press off his back, to sway jurors in an anti-trust trial, etc.

[Zombie3241234]

Yes but open source people give nothing but source, that only helps 1% of the community!

Go Bill Gates
Go Ballmer
Go Hitler!!!!!!

[Zombie3241234]

This poster is a cowardly arsehole who will not fucking shut up and go away. His/her only intention appears to be to lower the tone of any discussion. The secretive cunt deserves pain.

GO cheese
GO baloney
GO BABYBEL
G o  M o r i a r t y

(Secretive Cunt's IP Address: 203.54.24.248)

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[Calum]

once more the secretive cunt strikes back. why is this being allowed to continue?

also, Ctrl, i have to say, first of all Linux Torvalds is NOT responsible for any of the GNU/Linux operating system except the kernel. Unless i am sorely mistaken, you will have never actually interacted with the kernel yourself so you will not know about any of Mr Torvalds' actual work, only his reputation.
Also, none of the GNU/Linux software is "products". If you really think like that, maybe you should just keep using windows.

[Ctrl Alt Del 123]

You are right, Linus created the Linux Kernel for a school project (I believe) which happened to spread, nothing much else (to my awareness, correct me if I'm wrong). I know that.

However, he built the core. As for not actually using any of hsi work, this is also true. I haven't yet. But plan to do so real soon, I got another computer and will use that. But I have read his interviews and bios for research, as well as Bill Gates interviews and such. I don't have to use his work to get an basic understanding of him.

"Also, none of the GNU/Linux software is "products"." What do you mean by this? Do you mean that Linux is not a product? I think it is. The GNU is not, it's an agreement of keeping the source open and agreeing to some terms. I don't know exactly what it states, but know about it.

And your last sentence was very insulting, even from a moderator. You yourself wasn't born as good and intellectual in Linux as you are now. You start off knowing nothing about it and get introduced into it.

[Master of Reality]

A product is something that is being sold by a company. There is no real company developing GNU/Linux and nothing being sold, as its free.

[Ctrl Alt Del 123]

Which is what I said.

[Calum]

ctrl i didn't mean to insult you, and let's get it straight, i am not a moderator unless i say so specifically in the post. What i say here are totally my own opinions.

Anyway, as i say, i just meant that the GNU stuff is anti products entirely. If a product comes out (say it's KDE for example) then the free software foundation will retort by bringing out a program (it was GNOME) which does the same thing, but free and open source. In this case, GNOME wasn't actually the same and a lot of people still prefer KDE, and anyway it's open source nowadays anyway. But the point is, if you want to do something, but you cannot get the source code for the tools you need to do it, then you will have to resort to buying products. This should not be your only option, you should be able to choose between open source or products or a combination for everything.