I have a diferent point of view

[auser]

Hellow every one
Lets talk a bit about learning this system
Lets say that there is a new compter user who no nothing about the computers

if this user need to learn a computer system he will select Windows...
But why does not this user select MAC or Linux
He may not select Mac couse it too expensive as a new user
Now We have windows and Linux
Lets now together but both of these OS near and see the different
as a new user he need the easyest to be learned and deal with
Windows can really be for the new user couse Its MUCH easyer than linux
simply need to install anew APP just open the control pnel and use ADD/Remove programs
Need to install a new hardware .. The same thing
Need to use the programs
its easyer + Windows have a huge database of help
and first of all most of the programs are for windows Even if there is WINE in Linux

as an advance user and a good C programmer he may select linux harder and better security and open source
But the problem still in linux is using it how to
install a new program or hardware
even installing the OS it self
for me this is normal but I am talking about the new user

Lets talk about this
think about it

[Xeen]

I agree with you 100%.

Windows is shit, but it's very user friendly. Although my opinion is that since XP and with the upcoming Longhorn it's TOO friendly and just childish.

Linux is good, stable, and very customizable, but it's not as user friendly. Sure, it's getting there. But slowly and painfully. People want an OS that's not just good and stable, but also one where they don't have to care about compiling sources and kernels, etc...

I think the answer is something like Mac OSX. It's pure Unix but it has a very friendly shell that lets you do every single thing you need to do. All we need is for something similar to come out for PCs.

[hm_murdock]

You mean something like GenSTEP and Komodo

[Talium]

Someone who doesn't know anything about computers will chose Win cose it is not only user friendly but also the most popular OS. In my country most people(those that have no idea about computers) doesn't even know that other OS's exist and they all have windows. And the majoraty of those who know aboud other OS's don't use it eighter.

[WMD]

Windows seems very easy and intuitive, only because everyone has been made familiar with it.  There's plenty of people who don't know how to do much in Windows except run their programs - they can't do anything to the system.  I'll let a Mac user take it from here....  

[Laukev7]

I've been thinking of starting some website to help people switch to the Mac for a minimal cost, how to build your own Mac, how to find an alternative to software for Windows and stuff. I think it's not worth waiting for an alternative for PC, and that focus should be on switching people to OS X. I have to start working on that project one of these days.

[worker201]

Why is windows so easy to use?  Because of the over-exposure to windows.  Why is windows over-exposed?  Because it's so easy to use.  Why is windows so easy to use?

infinite loop, terminating.  That's ridiculous logic, and it needs to be flushed.

Although some *nixes claim to be desktop ready, they are only good for tech-savvy users.  I am glad to offer any assistance I can to new users, but some people will never get the concept.  However, these same people will never grasp the concept of NTFS permissions or registry editing or dll maintenance either, so I don't feel sorry for them.

OSX is light years beyond anything Microsoft has ever come up with.  If Apple shipped ten times as many units as they do now, they would cost probably 20% less, that's economics for you.  So if Macs are too expensive, you only have yourself to blame.  

[Xeen]

This semester I'll actually be learning and using the Mac OSX a lot for the first time.

But here's my 2 problems with Macs:
1. You buy them "as is". I dont like that. I like being able to build my own computer the way I want and be able to do anything with it. I don't like the Mac's designs. I dont like those semi-spheres with the monitors sticking out and I dont like the ones with everything built into the monitor either. The only thing I seem to like about Macs is the OS.

2. With Macs, you have to pay for everything which I simply cannot do. I like being able to get free software or pirated software cause I just cant afford stuff. With Macs, there ain't no free software like there is millions of it for Windows, and hardly anyone pirates mac stuff as far as I know.

[Laukev7]

quote: 1. You buy them "as is". I dont like that. I like being able to build my own computer the way I want and be able to do anything with it.

Not all Macs are iMacs. Powermacs are like PC's and can be expanded at will. It is even possible to build a Mac from scratch.

http://www.macopz.com/buildamac/

In fact, it's actually easier to upgrade a Mac than to upgrade a PC. All you have to do is add a PCI or ZIF card. If you don't wish to buy a G4 from Apple or build your own, you can buy some old G3 tower (or even a 9500) and buy an upgrade from Sonnet.

   

quote: 2. With Macs, you have to pay for everything which I simply cannot do.

Not true. There is plenty of freeware and shareware for Mac, and Mac software can be found just as easily with any P2P program. In fact, all you have to do is type the word 'mac' in the search engine to get all the Mac-specific software. Plus, many CD's are hybrids, so you are likely to already possess software that will work on the Mac.

[ September 04, 2004: Message edited by: Laukev7 / BOB ]

[bedouin]

quote:Originally posted by xeen:
But here's my 2 problems with Macs:
1. You buy them "as is". I dont like that. I like being able to build my own computer the way I want and be able to do anything with it. I don't like the Mac's designs. I dont like those semi-spheres with the monitors sticking out and I dont like the ones with everything built into the monitor either. The only thing I seem to like about Macs is the OS.

Well, my 2+ year old PowerMac has had the following internal changes made to it (I won't bother including external peripherals -- aside from he displays):

1) Stock Radeon 7000 32mb replaced with GeForce4 Ti 4600 128mb
2) Switched from CRT to LCD; CRT became secondary display
3) Purchased AlchemyTV DVR PCI card
4) Stock CD-RW replaced with Superdrive (DVD+-RW)
5) Added second internal hard drive
6) Added 1gb of RAM (still not maxxed out though)

And I'll probably upgrade the CPU soon as well.  I suppose I may need to add FW800 or USB 2.0 in the future sometime as well.  In that case I have plenty of empty PCI slots.

Even the iMacs are opening up.  Nearly every part in the new iMac G5 is user replaceable.  This may lead way for some interesting third-party upgrades.

Personally, I think the main reason I liked building my own machines from scratch as a PC user was because I knew every detail of the system; it gave me a sense of pride, kind of like putting together my own hot rod.  There was perhaps a false reassurance that because you chose each part, and assembled it yourself, that the machine was somehow superior, even to machines with better specifications that were pre-assembled.

Well, all I can say is I've learned to trust Apple.  The parts they select for their machines are generally quality, and not particularly different from what I would have chose if buying equivalent parts to build my own PC.  The only difference is I know with relative certainty that this product will function in OS X, without quests for drivers or other troubleshooting during reinstalls or when experiencing difficulties.  It's been said over and over: part of what makes OS X good is that Apple manufactures the machine and the OS.  

Also keep in mind many Mac designs are engineered not only to look 'pretty,' but for a specific function.  I always find it amusing that some PC people think Macs look ugly, then buy the most horrific looking PC case, complete with neon lights and other assorted nonsense.  

 

quote:]2. With Macs, you have to pay for everything which I simply cannot do. I like being able to get free software or pirated software cause I just cant afford stuff. With Macs, there ain't no free software like there is millions of it for Windows, and hardly anyone pirates mac stuff as far as I know.

The Mac warez scene has a pretty rich history.  Some might even consider Hotline an early precursor to modern P2P networks.  I'm not going to give you direct information, but there are plenty of Mac torrents, IRC channels, etc.

However if you're really interested in 'free' software OS X lets you compile nearly any Linux app and run it under X11.  Sometimes when I'm looking for a specific app the first thing I do is head over to Freshmeat and see what projects are available.

Then again, when you actually find an operating system that meets your needs exceptionally well, and hasn't been forced upon you, you might just find yourself purchasing software to support your community.  Imagine that.

[mobrien_12]

quote:Originally posted by worker201:
Why is windows so easy to use?  Because of the over-exposure to windows.  Why is windows over-exposed?  Because it's so easy to use.  Why is windows so easy to use?

infinite loop, terminating.  That's ridiculous logic, and it needs to be flushed.
 

I remember the first time I tried to  work with MS Word 6.0, never havning used a Word or Wordperfect program before, but being fluent in LaTeX.  It was a frigging nightmare.  It took a hellof a long time to learn how to use it ("how do I do this in Word when it's so easy in LaTeX?").

So NO, MS stuff is not easier.  It's just what people learn first in most cases.  And now I know more about Word than most people, and I can tell you that from what I see, 90% of the people don't know how to use it correctly.

[Orethrius]

quote:Originally posted by M. O'Brien:


And now I know more about Word than most people, and I can tell you that from what I see, 90% of the people don't know how to use it correctly.

I know, Word isn't a word processor, it's a tool for accessing otherwise restricted drives.  

[flap]

quote:Then again, when you actually find an operating system that meets your needs exceptionally well, and hasn't been forced upon you, you might just find yourself purchasing software to support your community. Imagine that.

If you're talking about purchasing proprietary software, then that's an easy way to undermine your community, not support it.

[bedouin]

quote:Originally posted by flap:
If you're talking about purchasing proprietary software, then that's an easy way to undermine your community, not support it.

That all depends on who my community is, and if I believe I solely belong to just one.  In that case support means a number of different things.  If you're going to have a kind of polarized "with us or against us" mentality then you're just as backward as the one's you're against.  The line becomes even less clear when you have a company like Apple that regularly contributes back to the open source community.

Seeing as I'm not much of a developer, the best I can contribute back to the OSS community is the occasional donation and bug reports.  Well, that and actually using said program -- which is a kind of support by itself, that commercial vendors fail to understand (yes, warez does help in some cases).  

However, I don't feel compelled to use a program just because it's open source when there's a superior alternative available.  Furthermore, I don't have a problem supporting a company that makes quality products, assuming they continue to do so, and act in a morally acceptable fashion (Microsoft fails not one, but both of these criteria).  In short, I'm with whoever has the superior solution, and acts in an acceptable manner.  In some cases that may be a small shareware developer living in New Zealand; in others it may be the makers of a Linux distribution, or open source app.  In the past it was BeOS and various Linux distributions; nowadays it's largely Apple.

Yet when a viable open source app comes that meets my needs I'm the first to adopt it, and then spread the word about it.  I have absolutely no qualms suggesting a Windows or Linux user check out OpenOffice instead of MS Office; I'm the first to install Firebird on someone's machine after repairing it, giving them a brief rundown of why it's a superior product, and why they should consider other non-MS alternatives.  I'll quickly ask a struggling Windows user who owns x86 hardware if he's ever considered Linux.  However if someone comes to me for advice about making their next computer purchase, I'd quickly suggest nothing other than a Mac running OS X, for their sanity and my own.

The battle for me isn't so much about commercial vs. open source; it's about destroying a very dangerous hegemony, that could destroy computers as we know them.  In my eyes the promotion of any alternative is a good thing.  The presence of many alternatives doesn't hurt open source, it only reenforces to the consumer that there are multiple choices.  What I hope for is computing to return back to what it was in the 80s, where a number of platforms were available all with their strengths and weaknesses.  What I don't want from the 80s is the lack of cross-platform compatibility.  This means eliminating file formats not supported across platforms, closed protocols, and coding with portability in mind.

[worker201]

quote:Originally posted by flap:


If you're talking about purchasing proprietary software, then that's an easy way to undermine your community, not support it.

Like Bedouin says, it depends on what your community is.  As a Linux user, support means bug reports, donations, art submissions, etc.  But in the Mac community, this may just mean sending $10 to a shareware developer.  A lot of Mac software is free, but not open source.  If I build autoconf or gnutls from source on my Mac, it's really more of a support to GNU than it is to Apple.  Supporting Apple means something else entirely.  Apple makes good software and good hardware, and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.