Author Topic: Is it just me...  (Read 5326 times)

badkarma

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Is it just me...
« Reply #15 on: 8 February 2002, 02:09 »
quote:

1) Host a Microsoft Exchange Server, an invaluble reasource to any corporation who relies heavily on the Microsoft Office Suite.



Why any company would want to rely on a bloated piece of software is beyond me. I have had to use MS Word and I must say I've had more bad experiences with it then good. I much rather use lyx so I can concentrate on content rather then layout for word processing. Excel isn't as bad but there are cheaper alternatives which offer the same functionality (like kspread, an excellent spreadsheet, and a *lot* cheaper too). Powerpoint is plain out laughable in comparison to magicpoint, which is by far the best presentation program I have ever seen. With magicpoint you (kind of) program a presentation, though a co-worker of mine who can't program (the best he can manage is write a hello world program in php  ;) ) made 3 extremely high quality presentations at the rate of 1/day, he had used powerpoint before and was absolutely ecstatic about magicpoint (plus the fact that you can embed any X application in your presentation is *invaluable* for a software company, instead of just showing screenshots during a presentation we can actually run the program and turn the presentation in a demonstration   ). Now why did I want to use MS office again? I forgot .....

 
quote:

2) Utilize advanced 3D accelerators at their full potential through DirectX, for the most part Linux is limited to OpenGL optimizations and is unable to use the built in DirectX optimizations.



lol, this point actually made me laugh. Then can you please explain why the Chameleon Geforce 3 demo (demonstrating the pixel shader) crashed on the DirectX version with the latest NVidia drivers but ran just fine on the OpenGL drivers? And why reverting to an earlier driver version fixed the DirectX version but not without certain problems (some pixels being shaded wrong, ran very slow).
And (since we are talking about linux as a desktop OS) why the hell then quake 3 and return to castle wolfenstein (and I think also unreal tournament but I can't verify this because I don't have that game) run a lot faster on linux then they do on windows? And why the hell id software (*the* creater of first person shooter genre and the best damn 3d engine maker ever (the quake 3 engine is really excellent, RTCW on a geforce 3 looks awesome)) then still chooses not to use directx?
I personally have not (nor will I ever probably) used directx, I have examined the API though and it looked very awkward to me. I'll prefer SDL/OpenGL over directx anytime.

 
quote:

3) Rely completely on the GUI without any command line dependancies. The X GUIs such as KDE and Gnome have come a long way in making Liux more user friendly, but high level vital functions still require the use of the command line (the terminal if X is running). Without any command line knowledge, Linux can still be used through KDE but it will basically be limited to being a word processor / web box.



Since we're still talking about a desktop OS we are also discussing productivity. Now let's do some hypothetical stuff here:

We have one average computer user using linux and one average computer user using windows. Both users just recently purchased their first pc and bought with it a beginners book about their OS. The windows user was taught a bit about pointing and clicking their way through their OS, the linux user was taught a bit about pointing and clicking through their OS *and* were taught a bit about using the command line. Now both users have worked a while and they have a lot of redundant files of the same file type they want to trash. First the windows user goes at it, he needs to open explorer (at least 2 clicks, probably more), traverse to the my documents folder (some more clicks), select every single file and not forget to hold the ctrl key as to avoid having to start again (trust me, it happens a lot, which leads up to a whole lot of clicks) all this clicking took our (not so very fast clicking) user about 5 minutes of his work time. Now the linux user goes at it, he has (very limited) knowledge of the commandline option, he has some lyx files in his home directory he wants to remove so he opens up a konsole (1 click) and types in : cd ~/oldfiles [enter] rm * [enter] . Now our user is a slow typer and clicker so this takes him around 30 seconds. Now that's a hypothetical time saving of 4and a half minutes, now you can say well, what is four and a half minutes? Imagine this scenrario in a corporate environment with a 1000 computers, how much time would this single fact alone save the company on yearbasis? (and time is money afterall)

And as for not being able to setup your system from a GUI, you have never actually used SuSE linux right? They have GUI tools for any possible thing you would want to set up (they also have a auto update feature (and a lot safer then the ms one at that too))

Plus the average joe doesn't even want to do use the advanced functions of an OS anyway, he just wants to type e-mails to his sister and browser pr0n sites.


 
quote:

4) Use a driver certification system, through the use of WHQL driver certification, drivers can be guarenteed to be stable in the OS they are certified for. This is very valuble for less skilled users, with that system in place Windows can be set to reject any non-WHQL drivers and prevent a less skilled user from installing faulty drivers.



Oh dear, I think you have fallen a bit for MS's way of customer binding, you might have noticed by know that on average people are pretty gullible (heck, I think 50+% of the computer users don't even know a PC can work without windows) so they are pretty much inclined to flat out believe what their computer tells them too (Homer Simpson yelling "where's the any key?" is inspired by actual tech support calls, trust me) so Microsoft yelling things about "certified drivers" would mean what? It's safe to install this driver for this computer? So they have tested out that particual piece of hardware with all other pieces of hardware and all other drivers in existance for windows? Because certified or not, *ALL* software has bugs. Then MS argues, the people should buy only microsoft certified hardware, so they run off to the nearest best buy or dixons or what they call it where you live, and shells out a lot of money on new hardware and just throw the old hardware away, but the people then realize that their computer still crashes oncee in a while because *ALL* software has bugs (I can't stress this enough  ;) ). Can you honestly say that this is a good thing? Do you truly believe that this is a good bussiness model?

 
quote:

5) Support the majority of hardware and software out on the market. This is a major plus for consumers, through all of the support Windows has throughout the hardware and software industries the users will be open to a much broader range of products that will work with their system.



Like I said .... have you *ever* installed SuSE linux? It even recognised my trident integrated cyberblade on my old comcrap pc, I haven't had a single piece of hardware it didn't recognise immediatly. If I had (I put a geforce 2 in it    to install win 2k from scratch I had to go through the agony of finding a driver for the cyberblade (or have that funky 640x480 16 colours look) which was extra hard because trident filed a lawsuit against VIA (or vice versa, I forgot, it was a real mess anyway) and on the VIA site it said go to S3 and on the S3 site it said go to VIA. So that invalidates another of your points.

And while I've completed my list, I would like to point out a few things in your list.

 
 
quote:

That one was correct... Linux is definately THE platform for programming.
[/QUOTE

I couldnt' imagine *ever* programming under windows again, if I had to write win32 software I'd either opt for using a platform independant toolkit or using the wine API.

Quote
Now, in closing I think I should clear a few things up on where my opinions stand. First, when I defend Windows, I am only defending the NT variations of it, Win9x was without a doubt a horrible OS, almost the the point of being unusable. Second, I do not hate Linux, it simply doesn't fit my needs for anything other than my HTTP/FTP/IRC server, I feel it's an excellent OS for most servers and for programming, it just leaves a lot to be desired in the feild of general desktop usability. And finally, Apple... Apple is a company I strongly dispise, they depend  heavily on hype and aesthetics, neither of which matter in terms of real performance and as a company, they engage in some very childish mudslinging.

Well, that's my two cents...



To each his own I say, however microsoft will have a hard time selling me anything, ever .... (and this is not because of a biased or clouded vision, this is due to experience and frustration)

My 2 euro cents

(WARNING: this post will probably contain lot's of spelling and grammatical errors, please look past them, thank you   )
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Xenoran

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« Reply #16 on: 8 February 2002, 02:47 »
I think the bottom line is that people will use what they like as a matter of personal preference and novices will use whatever came preinstalled...

badkarma

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« Reply #17 on: 8 February 2002, 03:35 »
quote:
Originally posted by Xenoran:
and novices will use whatever came preinstalled...


That fact alone is astonishing, it's like going to the supermarket and buying a bread to find there already is peanutbutter on it, and you could either take the bread with the peanutbutter and scrape the peanutbutter off and put roast beef on it, or take the ingredients of the bread and bake it yourself and put on wathever you want (because the peanutbutter bread still tastes like peanuts cause it was "designed" for it)

And it doesn't all boil down to personal preferencee (it plays a (rather limited) part though) it all boils down to marketing and aggresive bussiness tactics, two things linux will never have. Think how many people would choose MS products in a world where windows could run *nix programs and *nix could run windows programs, no single OS came preinstalled, and both OS'es would receive equal marketing.....

as for the 5 points (keeping it short this time   )

1. I meant IDE as in Integrated Development Environment not as in Integrated Drive Electronics (I'm a programmer, not a hardware specialist   )

2. You can "skin" linux too (and too a much greater extent since you can choose a different windowmanager (or write your own) if you want).
And those translucent menus really are sweet  :D

3. I found windows XP to be *extremely* unreliable with (somewhat dated) windows games, railroad tycoon 2 would only start one out of six times normally, the other 4 out of 6 times the palette was all garbled and one out of 6 times the screen was garbled and the palette would start fading and would totally lock up the OS. I now run it without problems under linux with wine.

4. What you could consider a BSOD under linux (a core dump) would lead me to the exact function in the exact library (I usually compile everything with debug information  :D ) the exception has occured and (should I want to) do something about it.

Ok ... enough ranting .... *rings bell* you may now continue with the mudslinging gentlemen   :D

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: BadKarma ]

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voidmain

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Is it just me...
« Reply #18 on: 8 February 2002, 03:40 »
quote:
Originally posted by Xenoran:
novices will use whatever came preinstalled...


And the monopoly continues....
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Xenoran

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« Reply #19 on: 8 February 2002, 06:48 »
The real issue is clearly ignorance, most novice users aren't even aware of what the operating systems is, I know a lot of them who used to think that "Windows is the PC"... And with that being the issue, I think bundling the systems with XP home is the best thing to do, could you imagine what those people would be like on Linux? However, there should be an option to purchase the system without an OS for more advanced users who know what an OS is and how to install one.

My only complaint with MS is that they idiot proofed XP Professional to some extent, which was uncalled for considering that only the more advanced users install it and that almost all PCs come with home edition. Home Edition should've been idiot proofed to the highest extent...

voidmain

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« Reply #20 on: 8 February 2002, 07:27 »
quote:
Originally posted by Xenoran:
The real issue is clearly ignorance, most novice users aren't even aware of what the operating systems is, I know a lot of them who used to think that "Windows is the PC"... And with that being the issue, I think bundling the systems with XP home is the best thing to do, could you imagine what those people would be like on Linux?



Yeah, they would be a lot more secure, they wouldn't need virus software and they would get a better deal on their PC

 
quote:

 However, there should be an option to purchase the system without an OS for more advanced users who know what an OS is and how to install one.



No, they should sell the PC without any software period and give the user the choice of what software they want to be shipped with the machine.  If they can install their OS the first time, they can probably "reinstall it" which will likely only happen with the people who select the MS operating system.  Or at least offer a few choices, along with a no operating system installed choice.  This will not happen though because Microsoft has a leash on those hardware vendors.

 
quote:

My only complaint with MS is that they idiot proofed XP Professional to some extent, which was uncalled for considering that only the more advanced users install it and that almost all PCs come with home edition. Home Edition should've been idiot proofed to the highest extent...



And why would Microsoft have to "idiot proof" their system?  I'll give you three guesses.
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Calum

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« Reply #21 on: 8 February 2002, 16:31 »
first of all, i didn't mean to really call you a fucktard, but what a good word!!! Right, on to the meaningful adult discussion:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xenoran
Why should I respond? This entire forum is clearly 100% closed minded. With the replies I've seen in this post and the various other topics around the forum, an intelligent debate here is clearly futile.
Bullshit! you just can't handle the heat! This forum is not closed minded, just because its participants do not happen to want to join the LickMicrosoft'sButt club.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xenoran
All I can say is that by the level of immaturity you all have expressed on this forum, you are all shaming the operating systems / platforms your attempting to support, it's quite sad really...
don't get too emotional now, what immaturity? sure we all sling insults at each other, but that's just the form of some of the debate. What counts is the substance. If you want lost to stop calling you a fucktard (which should be like water off a duck's back in a sane world), then i wouldn't continue to adopt this teacher/angry old man next door stance. Just a word of advice.
 
quote:
Originally posted by the well meaning but possibly misguided Xenoran:
The real issue is clearly ignorance, most novice users aren't even aware of what the operating systems is, I know a lot of them who used to think that "Windows is the PC"... And with that being the issue, I think bundling the systems with XP home is the best thing to do, could you imagine what those people would be like on Linux? However, there should be an option to purchase the system without an OS for more advanced users who know what an OS is and how to install one.

I think you have a lot of well considered opinions, and i haven't had a lot of experience using the stuff you have used, so i have a limited knowledge base with which to comment, but i really hope you are being at least a little bit sarcastic. okay, a lot of people are not too sure of the inner workings of their computer and often don't want to know anyway, but why would packaging a heapload of uncoordinated proprietary bullshit with a nice new PC be GOOD for the user? If it was the norm to give "those people" the choice, when they bought the machine, there would be no confusion, not even amongst those "novice users" you so eloquently dismiss, because it would be NORMAL. It would be WHAT THEY EXPECTED. They could even choose to have SunOS, SUSELinux, Windows3.1, OS/2, whatever they wanted installed in the shop. They could pay extra and never have to install it themselves (unless it was windows, as it needs reinstalled periodically but that's another story). The important thing here is they would have the choice. They would be told their options and be able to choose. Do you really have a problem with that?

Let's see a scenario where no new PC gets sold with an OS, but business cards and pamphlets for each OS could be bundled with the PC if the OS distributor so desired. Right, so Windows leaflets will come with every computer. PCs in the US and Australia and Canada et c would come with Red Hat Leaflets, PCs in Asia would come with TurboLinux leaflets. Of course these Linux OSs are free, so they could actually ship a CD with the PCs containing the basic stuff for their install, maybe they could entice users to get the other 6 CDs or whatever if they liked the OS.
What i'm saying is, PEOPLE ONLY USE WINDOWS BECAUSE WINDOWS KNOWS HOW TO USE PEOPLE.

 
quote:
Xenoran again...
My only complaint with MS is that they idiot proofed XP Professional to some extent, which was uncalled for considering that only the more advanced users install it and that almost all PCs come with home edition. Home Edition should've been idiot proofed to the highest extent...

Windows is Windows is Windows. Who cares if it's idiot proofed? it's not the idiots we need to worry about, they are only doing word processing and browsing the net, and maybe listening to MP3s. It should be Microsoft proofed. Got a problem with Windows? don't blame it on the idiots! Microsoft is always at the heart of the problem.

 
quote:
Originally posted by BadKarma
And it doesn't all boil down to personal preferencee (it plays a (rather limited) part though) it all boils down to marketing and aggresive bussiness tactics, two things linux will never have.

I just quoted this because i agree totally. It's not a case of "whose software is better", it's all a propoghanda/PR battle just like the cold war Russia/America stuff. Promotion is politics.
I support anybody's right to run whatever they want on their computer including Windows, but that's exactly the point. Most people are told what they want before they've even had a chance to think about it.
Ball's in your court, Fucktard   :D
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Xenoran

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« Reply #22 on: 8 February 2002, 20:44 »
quote:
Let's see a scenario where no new PC gets sold with an OS, but business cards and pamphlets for each OS could be bundled with the PC if the OS distributor so desired. Right, so Windows leaflets will come with every computer. PCs in the US and Australia and Canada et c would come with Red Hat Leaflets, PCs in Asia would come with TurboLinux leaflets. Of course these Linux OSs are free, so they could actually ship a CD with the PCs containing the basic stuff for their install, maybe they could entice users to get the other 6 CDs or whatever if they liked the OS. What i'm saying is, PEOPLE ONLY USE WINDOWS BECAUSE WINDOWS KNOWS HOW TO USE PEOPLE.


That I would have to agree with, but the leaflets would need to be made by a 3rd party impartial source, if they were made by the software manufacturer, the issue of false advertising would come into the picture. Also, Windows does not "use people", people use it... and then proceed to crash it with AOL and every other unstable app known to man   :(  ...

Gonusto

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« Reply #23 on: 8 February 2002, 21:33 »
One thing Fucktard needs to realize is that there are multiple reasons why people hate Microsoft.  The entire reason I started trying to install Linux (and evenually remove Windows completely from my system) was because of Windows lack of security and privacy.   Having a more stable OS is just a pleasent side affect.

Microsoft has no respect for the customer.  The customer in Bill Gate's eyes is just another tool to be used and manipulated for his own gain.  And how does he do it?  Through the software.  Between hidden files and your own computer sending reports back on you and your habits (just to name a few things), you loose all sense of privacy when using Windows.  And XP is the worst (until .NET comes out that is)!!!  Don't believe me, Needle Dick?  Just read this.  (I realize that a lot of people who visit this site don't live in the United States.  But believe me, that doesn't make you or your information any less the safe).


-Gonusto

P.S.  I realize I posted that link in another thread, but I believe that it has more meaning in this one.  Plus, I want Fucktard to read it.

Xenoran

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« Reply #24 on: 8 February 2002, 21:44 »
Needle Dick? Fucktard? This is clearly futile... goodbye!

badkarma

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« Reply #25 on: 8 February 2002, 22:21 »
quote:
Originally posted by Xenoran:
Needle Dick? Fucktard? This is clearly futile... goodbye!


And so he leaves without actually proving anything, and without actually defending his pov in a sensible manner just because someone calls him a fucktard .... lol .... fucktard isn't even a word ffs

Your user manual should state "lightly inflammable, please handle with care"

sticks and stones ....
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Gonusto

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« Reply #26 on: 8 February 2002, 22:24 »
Oh, don't get your panties in a knot!  Are you so insecure that you can't handle a bit of name calling?  At least I wasn't bragging about how good your mom was last night (I've had better by the way).  Want me to make it up to you?  You obviously have some form of intelligence since you can type gramatically correct English.  Does that make you feel any better, Shitface?  

Yes, you have a right to your own opinion . . . but so do I.  What do you expect when you come to a site called "fuckmicrosoft.com", a site devoted to Microsoft alternatives, and talk about how good Microsoft is?  I hope you weren't expecting to find support and sympathy . . . 'cause if you were, then I'll have to retract my previous statement about you having some form of intellegince.

So why don't you just go back to your goats (or whatever else it is you like to fuck) and leave me to hate Microsoft in peace.  Oh, and tell Billy boy "Hi," for me next time you go to suck his dick . . gutter slut.


-Gonusto

kjg

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« Reply #27 on: 10 February 2002, 10:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by Gonusto:

Microsoft has no respect for the customer.  The customer in Bill Gate's eyes is just another tool to be used and manipulated for his own gain.  And how does he do it?  Through the software.  Between hidden files and your own computer sending reports back on you and your habits (just to name a few things), you loose all sense of privacy when using Windows.  And XP is the worst (until .NET comes out that is)!!!  Don't believe me, Needle Dick?  Just read this.  (I realize that a lot of people who visit this site don't live in the United States.  But believe me, that doesn't make you or your information any less the safe).



WOW! Thanks for the link to that site! I guess I have to "come out of the closet" and show my "true colors" here - tinfoil! (As in, wearing a tin foil hat to prevent mindreading/brainwashing by the gov't/illuminati/whatever.)

So, call me conspiracy theorist... but I can't help but wonder if there's more to it than just Gate's gain... Why did the gov't back down so quickly on the breakup? (Other than the fact that the people now in charge think that anti-trust laws are just a sneaky way to keep good, decent hardworking multi-millionaire monopolists from taking ALL the money).

They had Microsoft on the ropes... could have gotten all kinds of concessions, yet, they didn't as for anything in return for backing down - that is, nothing that we know about. But suddenly we start hearing about Carnivore and "Magic Lantern," and the ironically named USA PATRIOT Act gets passed. You know, the one that allows the FBI and the CIA to "sneak and peek" on your computer without having to show even an unreasonable suspicion, let alone a reasonable one - all with a laughable degree of judicial oversight: Basically they go to a judge and sign this, and the judge is required to sign it on their "say so" that it concerns possible threats to national security. But, they aren't required to show the judge why they think there might be a possible threat to national security because... well, showing that information might be a threat to national security, doncha know.

Sure, Microsoft is collecting info on your surfing and stuff for their own database, but who's to say who ELSE is going to get that info?

What deals were made, hmmmmmm? Just askin'.

  :eek:  

Karen
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Calum

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« Reply #28 on: 10 February 2002, 20:07 »
Not Registered, i wish you could get over your fear of naughty language.
I reckon that the leaflets could still be advertising, as this is the heart and soul of free enterprise, but forcing something on someone that they didn't ask for, that they are paying hundreds of bucks for is not on.
Plus, if windows can't even run simple programs (which it can't even you say so yrself), how is it worth all that money or even any money in the first place?
PS, nobody here is a fucktard in my opinion, it's just a funny word! can't we have a little bit of humour without people leaving in droves? it's not as if i'm starting an unjustified war against Afghanistan for example!  ;)
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voidmain

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« Reply #29 on: 11 February 2002, 00:28 »
Calum, I thought you were smarter than that, guess not.
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