DAMN NON-MS APPLICATIONS!!

[Calum]

openoffice and mozilla composer are both free open source wysiwyg html editors. to use composer, start mozilla and press alt-f4, i think, to use openoffice for a wysiwyg, just save as html. unlike microsoft word, this will actually SAVE YOUR DOCUMENT AS REAL HTML!

may i say, all these apps that were slow and which crashed, did you try them out in windows? that might be your problem right there.

now, onto another reply:

quote:Open office is BETTER than M$ office. Just because it is not 100% compatable with M$ does not mean it is no good. And to be fair you can save documents as .doc and I have yet to find a document that will not work.

i can email you my girlfriend's CV if you want, it opens in openoffice in windows, and does not even open in openoffice for linux. Unfortunately if you open it in windows/openoffice and touch any formatting, the formatting has all been fucked up when you reopen in word. This is one document that has me beaten as regards editing it in linux. Until she relents and saves as html using openoffice she will have to reboot for each time she wants to edit her CV.

[pkd_lives]

To be honest I think CVs will be a problem, probably the biggest problem in general.

Why. That's because CVs were started years ago. They are constantly updated and they are produced using different versions of word processor. So you have the inherent incompatability with Word .doc format over it's various incarnations. Add to that it's changed between different word processor applications.

The issue is probably that the document is full of old formating issues that are no longer supported, deemed a bad idea or not carried through on an industry wide basis. Maybe it's time for a rewrite - and yes I agree with your following statement - you should not have to do this. You may want to try saving it as a rich text or old word style format. Of course you have probably tried all this (but someone might need this suggestion).

[spinningheel4242]

Okay,
Now, I did install Opera 6 and tried to get into the zone.  Yes, the zone was displayed correctly but the moment I tried to play Rogue Spear (you need to install some files) the whole process ground to a halt.  Again, this is a Microsoft Site with Microsoft  software so no surprise there.  I was just hoping that it would actually work but now I'll have to resort to using IE for the zone.

And, thanks for the info on WYSIWYG html editors.  The problem that I have is that I use Dreamweaver and would really like to use it (or a similar editor) if I switched to Linux.  As of now, I don't think there are any powerful html editors for Linux??!!

Thanks

[Calum]

spinningheel, mozilla composer *is* as good as dreamweaver for html. I have not tried it for dynamic stuff so it might not be as good as Ultradev. However it is *not* dreamweaver so if you do try mozilla composer do give it a chance to grow on you. Also, remember you can always open the document in openoffice which will give you different toolbars and so on, and you can also edit the html in any text editor (quanta is a good one, it has full toolbars, colour coded html text and a bunch of other stuff.

Don't make the mistake of thinking mozilla composer is not as good as DW just because it is free. GIMP is better than photoshop and it's free, and well, linux is better than windows and it's free... hmm.
Also, if you want desperately to run ultradev, you might want to try running it using WineX or another windows emulator, although i wouldn't hold my breath. I used to be in exactly the same boat as you and i am now happily editing my html in emacs on linux...


re: my girlfriend's CV, it is a word97/2000 document full of tables and the like that i suspect are all the same sort of thing as you find in access or one of the other M$ office apps. Since openoffice doesn't do access emulation then i think that is part of the problem.

Yes we have tried saving as rtf - disaster. Formatting mostly ignored, text boxes not supported, all sorts of crap.

Saving as html will enable me to retain much of the formatting however we will then not be able to control page breaks, also i would have to write the CV, and my girlfriend would not be able to edit it herself, since she cannot write html to the standard of putting in tables and shaded cells and so on.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[Centurian]

quote:Originally posted by spinningheel4242:

And, thanks for the info on WYSIWYG html editors.  The problem that I have is that I use Dreamweaver and would really like to use it (or a similar editor) if I switched to Linux.  As of now, I don't think there are any powerful html editors for Linux??!!

Thanks

I use Quanta Plus. It does a very nice job. Check out my website. Parts of it were written in MS Frontpage Express and parts were written in Quanta Plus. You can't tell the which is which.  

I now use only Quanta Plus so as time goes by it will all be done in Quanta Plus as I make adjustments and updates.

Quanta Plus isn't WYSIWYG but it offers a nice preview option. Usually I just open the html page I am working on in a browser then as I make changes I keep refreshing it until I get it the way I want it.

[Master of Reality]

i use vim for all my html editing. No WYSIWYG crap.
Check out www.bobhub.tk or www.the-abyss.tk

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: The Master of Reality / Bob ]

[voidmain]

Yeah, vim rules for HTML. WYSIWYG actually should be wysiNwyg when it comes to graphical editors.

[jtpenrod]

Blue Fish is also a pretty good Linux html editor. Most distros include it in their software packages.
_______________________________________

Computers are like air conditioners: they can't do their jobs if you open windows.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: jtpenrod ]

[spinningheel4242]

Ok, so what I have read intrigues me but I have to say, there is no prevailing reason to switch to Linux or Mac.  Basically, there is no KILLER APP that makes it worthwhile.  Now, don't get me wrong, I hate MS but I am not also technically inclined to learn a new OS like Linux (I can't be bothered with command lines etc).  And the Macs that I have used just don't compare (performance wise) to PC's.  I really wish they did cuz I would like a viable alternative to MS but there just isn't any.  A lot of you say Linux or Mac are WAY better and easier than MS...well, on many regards you are correct.   However, myself and my wife like EASY and SIMPLE and MS provides that.  That is why Linux will NEVER become a decktop contender....it takes too much time and effort to learn.  
And with all of the html responses....yes, there are good code editors out there for linux but I use dreamweaver or similar layout html editors.  So, as of late, there are no Linux/Mac distro's that can match these products.
But, basically, one of the biggests snags is with games........yes, I love gaming and guess what.....only a few GOOD games are available for Linux/Mac.  Also, I don't want to wait 6+ months for games to come out for Mac.  Basically, the amount I have used Mac is very disheartening.  I think they have a lot of potential but until they port with PC components....they will never win many converts.  
I will continue my search for viable alternatives to MS (I am now using incredimail for email etc!) but I will have to stick to the other gambit of MS crap and crap until I can convert to a truly user-friendly system....

Spin

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by spinningheel4242:
Ok, so what I have read intrigues me but I have to say, there is no prevailing reason to switch to Linux or Mac.  Basically, there is no KILLER APP that makes it worthwhile.

I guess you don't understand. Linux itself is the killer app. You get everything in one package for free. A package of software that you would have to pay Microsoft over $10,000 for equivelant capability (that's not an exageration).

   

quote:Now, don't get me wrong, I hate MS but I am not also technically inclined to learn a new OS like Linux (I can't be bothered with command lines etc).

Have you used RedHat 8.0? You don't have to be technically inclined. My wife and kids use it exclusively and they are as far from technically inclined that a person can get.

   

quote:
And the Macs that I have used just don't compare (performance wise) to PC's.  I really wish they did cuz I would like a viable alternative to MS but there just isn't any.  A lot of you say Linux or Mac are WAY better and easier than MS...well, on many regards you are correct.   However, myself and my wife like EASY and SIMPLE and MS provides that.  That is why Linux will NEVER become a decktop contender....it takes too much time and effort to learn.

Have you tried RedHat 8.0? It really is a vast improvement. In fact Windows XP User #90909098234 even had good words for it. I *never* thought I would hear anything positive coming out of his mouth about Linux. I mean his tagline says "Open Source Now? Open Source Never! Go Microsoft!". That says something. I have been using it for several days now. I didn't like it at first but I come from the other end of the spectrum. I didn't like it because it was too clean and n00b friendly. I have learned to change my mind. I do like it and think it's much closer now than ever before. I would be quivering a little if I were Microsoft.

   

quote:And with all of the html responses....yes, there are good code editors out there for linux but I use dreamweaver or similar layout html editors.  So, as of late, there are no Linux/Mac distro's that can match these products.
But, basically, one of the biggests snags is with games........yes, I love gaming and guess what.....only a few GOOD games are available for Linux/Mac.  Also, I don't want to wait 6+ months for games to come out for Mac.  Basically, the amount I have used Mac is very disheartening.  I think they have a lot of potential but until they port with PC components....they will never win many converts.  
I will continue my search for viable alternatives to MS (I am now using incredimail for email etc!) but I will have to stick to the other gambit of MS crap and crap until I can convert to a truly user-friendly system....

Spin

Hmmm, how much experience do you actually have with Linux? Which distro and version? Those sound like outdated remarks for the most part. You are correct that there certainly isn't the number of games out there for Linux that there is for Windows but there are some good ones. I personally have a PlayStation 2 (well my kids do) for playing games. I just don't get into games any more. I like pestering people on these forums more.    

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]

[psyjax]

Spinningwheel, when was the last time you used a Mac???

Mac's perform great when loaded up with Jaguare. Certainly fast enugh to do everything you do and more. All of the productivity apps, art apps, etc. are all released for Mac, offten before their PC counterparts, not to mention the fact that they run better overall.

Gameing on a Mac is not as bad as it used to be, sure we don't get every single half baked title that comes along, but we get all the good stuff. Beside's as Void says, spending 2000+ on a computer so you can play games is nonsense. Spend 200 on a PS2.

A Mac is EASY, STABLE, and shitloads better than any hunk of jumk M$ box. If you want a way out of M$ and don't wanna adjust to linux, I think you should give the Mac a good HARD look. I mean, give a new G4 a test drive. I guarentee you will be more than impressed, performance wise, and everything else.

A Mac is the way to go, you should be more open minded and give 'em a chance.

EDIT: BTW, the Mac is even more of a killer app. because under OSX Jaguare you can run all of the standard programs you do in windows, better and faster. And using XDarwin you can run a large variety of the open source software available to Linux. The best of both worlds!!!
 
How do you like that? Not to mention the fact that Apple is against Palladium and DRM. I mean ask yourself this, is your computer just a glorified game consol, or a tool for your everyday life?

If it's the later, than a Mac is for you. Problems, all of them, solved.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: psyjax ]

[spinningheel4242]

Ok, I have to admit, the last Mac release I have used is 9 what-ever....even so, it sucked.
Mac's can not and will not compare to Intel.....give it a rest.  There is no comparison between a P4 and a Mac system...and that is where my main conplain layes.  Yes, the new Mac is all that and a bag of chip.....but guess what, is doesn't even come close to comparing to a similar P4 or Athlon system.  So, please spare me the comparisons.

Now, I haven't used the new Red Hat Distro....I can't tell you the benefits etc....

All I know, is that MS offers a more user-friendly interface (don't know about redhat) that I can interface with.......

Spin

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by spinningheel4242:
Now, I haven't used the new Red Hat Distro....I can't tell you the benefits etc....

All I know, is that MS offers a more user-friendly interface (don't know about redhat) that I can interface with.......

Spin

Well, that would be fair (should try RH8 though). Hey, if you like what you got and you're happy with the price you paid for it then that's all that counts right? I don't understand why someone who is content with their Microsoft OS would come here though. You are not the only one. There are 2 others.

[Calum]

spinningheel, you do not understand, however nobody can make you understand except yourself.

if you are happy to use M$ products then be my guest. think of me during your next blue screen of death or mysterious system freeze.

My reasons for boycotting microsoft are down to their militant attempts to destroy consumer choice. if microsoft had their way you would only be ableto use their software and you would only be able to use it in ways that they have approved. This is happening.

The communities surrounding other operating systems and their related software do not care if you use those systems. I do not care if you use linux, or BSD or a Mac, do what you like. Sadly this is not what people expect. M$ have conditioned people to expect a militant approach from everybody. I often see rude people showing up on these boards (not yourself, spin) demanding that we give them umptleytum reasons to switch to linux, why should i waste my time? if somebody wants to change, they should change, if they don't then they can live with the consequences.

As for linux not being as easy, i have this to say:

Why is windows easy for you? it is because we have all grown up with it. I mean for years now microsoft windows has defined, and been allowed to define, how computing is done. Windows was based on the Mac GUI, but pretty quickly MacOS has tried to look like windows to make people more at home. KDE is an attempt to get the XWindowing system to act like M$Windows. GNOME is a copy of KDE. Many systems have bent over backwards to give you the microsoft GUI. There are exceptions, as i say MacOS was already similar to windows since windows is a copy of the Mac GUI, and RiscOS had the 'windows95 toolbar' a full SEVEN years before it appeared in windows 95.

Now, linux is a LOT more complicated than windows, and there is a lot more you can do with it. The windows GUI that linux desktops use is simply NOT good enough to showcase all of linux' features. There are two ways this is circumnavigated: firstly by making the GUI a bit more complicated, to incorporate new features. simple and obvious things like XKill, the hundreds of apps on the start bar, DrakConf being available on the desktop, and user id management that actually works are just some of the things that will immediately have windows users throwing their arms up and crying "Oh NO! Nobody told me this linux stuff was going to be so different", well that's just the tip of the iceberg. I am no command line junkie but many of the things you can do in linux are simply easier or only possible from a command line. tough shit.

basically i am saying two things here, thing one is: if you don't want to change then fine, nobody's forcing you, make up your own mind. Just accept the consequences of deciding to stick with unreliable, expensive and creatively repressive (this in response to the new copy protection thing) software. thing two: you have been weaned on windows. do not expect to learn an infinitely more capable and infinitely more expansive operating system overnight. Windows was designed to be for people who can afford a computer. unix type systems are for people that use their computers to DO stuff with.

[spinningheel4242]

Ok, I have to admit, you have some great comments.  

First, I, myself, hate MS.  I am always looking for new apps etc to replace their MS counterparts (incredimail, mozilla etc).  One major reason I still use(d) outlook is for my hotmail accounts.  But, guess what, their recent changes (limiting storage, requiring log-on's ever 30 days) has made me slowly switch over to better webmail services.  Can anyone tell me a great webmail service?  

Second, can you tell me that a good linux distro will be 100 percent compatible with my PC hardware (2 year old Dell?).  Also, would it be ok to run a dual boot machine...ie  would I run into any problems or conflicts?

So, yes, I have been weaned on MS products since my inception and for that, I am infinitely biased.  But I think that me just being here is a positive sign.  I, myself, hate what and how MS has come to dominate the market. And, from what I hear, Linux/Mac have made huge inroads into making their products superior/easier to use.  Because, if you look at the common user, most have trouble surfing the internet or changing their desktop theme.  I, myself, was one of those people.  But, a variety of factors have slowly started changing my mind (blue screens of death, freeze-ups, functionality limitations)

So, I guess my complaint about non-MS products has come full circle.  I have many apps/games that are just not available on Linux/Mac.  So, I think I will always need to keep Windoze for those.  But, I think that Linux will offer a better day to day computing experience.  Now, again with my question, what Linux distro would be well suited to a Noob running a dual boot machine?

Well, thanks for the responses and suggestions...

Spin