Linux to Over take Apple on Desktop

[psyjax]

Well folks, It's been fun  

I don't necissarly disagree with any of your response. Although I have not used Synaptic. Im just suggesting that all of the stuff you show as proof of it's simplicity..... may not be what some concider simple.  :rolleyes:  

I never said it was imposible, or unusable, just not as simple as it could be. And yes, I ment /mnt/zip my apologies. And I mentioned that Redhat 9 did auto detect it, but Redhat 8 didn't

I still maintain my stance that it is not for the common user. There are alot of steps, that may be seen as trivial to you guys who use Linux all the time, that other OS users simply never have to take.

Everything in OSX, I do mean EVERYTHING, can be done quickly and simply, in a consistent manner, with much fewer steps than you mentioned.

To install I ALLWAYS double click on the .pkg and it ALLWAYS installs. To remove, I drag the folder to the trash, ALLWAYS. No menu, no Add/remove no nothing.

I want to download something and install it, it works right away. I don't have to care about some app that manages the dependancies for me to "simplify" what is already complicated. OSX, has no need for this.

And your right, if Aqua or something similar, is ever implemented over linux to the same effect as it behaves on Mac OSX, I will have no complaints. But I use linux nearly every day, and Im not blind, things are not as smooth as they could be.

Infact, I have my OSX powerbook open right next to my linux box. There is a big diffrence in the learning curve and the way the OS's behave. Im not saying linux sucks, Im just saying that it's surely not the best choice for all non-tech savvy users.

[Laukev7]

I have tried synaptic, and while it is an improvement, you have to consider that:

-It still only supports distribution specific packages;

-Some repositories are incompatible (e.g. Fedora);

-You have to search for repositories to find supported packages;

-You have to hunt in a very long and badly organised list of applications to find what you want (e.g. the category 'application' is not the same as 'Applications');

-Synaptic is of little help if you don't know what you're looking for (ie. scant description, long, confusing lists);

-Once the applications are installed, you have to hunt in the very long KDE/GNOME menu to find what you just installed (if it even appears in the menu), which, again, can differ from a distro to another, and can have the same organisations issues as Synaptic;

-If the application(s) does not appear in the menu, you have to use the KDE legacy app finder (which does not find everything), and add the rest manually, searching through even longer lists of applications in /bin, /usr/bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin, /usr/local/bin, /opt, /home, etc. And you have to know the name of the executable, which is not necessarily the same as the name of the package (is it foo, Foo, foo2, FoO or foo-1.5?). Of course, it can take a VERY long time to add all the one you need, if you have many. And where should you put them? Does foo go in KDE/Applications or KDE/office? And you have to start over for other Window managers, if you have any, because not all of them support KDE menus (you don't have this problem in OS X, because you just have to go to the 'Applications' folder, whether in KDE, GNOME, or IceWM), if you really want to use them instead of Aqua.

-After you resolve all the dependencies, you get litterally hundreds of programs you'll never use (not just a few like Chess.app or Windows Solitaire), which can take thousands of gigs on your hard drive, and through which you'll have to navigate;

-You have none of those problems with an individual package installation (e.g. OPENSTEP, OS X, BeOS)

-Fink (Apt-get) is available for Mac OS X anyway, if you need it.

Incidentally, I installed Red Hat 9 (again) just yesterday. I proceeded to install the hundreds of packages I might need (because you don't really know what you're going to need). At a point, it slowed down my computer, making it unusable and impossible to quit Synaptic, so I had to reboot my computer. First thing I knew, fsck couldn't repair the filesystem (and I had journalised ext3). So, I had to repair it manually, and ctrl-D. When I rebooted my computer,  I couldn't log in GNOME anymore, because the panel and the desktop manager crashed.

I think I'll go back to BeOS, and resume looking forward to get a Mac now.

[Stryker]

It only really bothers me because it seems to me that if u found someone who was intrested in buying a computer, you'd probably recommend windows because "linux isn't mature". That is a matter of opinion, but everyone i've introduced to linux (that hasn't already been infected by windows) found it very easy. Most of the people that have used windows still found it easy. The only time I hear that it's hard is from people over 30 who haven't even tried it. My friend's parents say it's hard, which pisses me off because they've never even seen it used. That's a different subject and I'm rambling... so, i'm done.

[psyjax]

quote:Originally posted by Stryker:
It only really bothers me because it seems to me that if u found someone who was intrested in buying a computer, you'd probably recommend windows because "linux isn't mature". That is a matter of opinion, but everyone i've introduced to linux (that hasn't already been infected by windows) found it very easy. Most of the people that have used windows still found it easy. The only time I hear that it's hard is from people over 30 who haven't even tried it. My friend's parents say it's hard, which pisses me off because they've never even seen it used. That's a different subject and I'm rambling... so, i'm done.

I concure. And trust me, I would NEVER, EVER, Under any sicumstances advocate windowz   !

Though I have been using it alot lately. Basicaly becaous im incharge of insureing a certain cross platform project Im involved in works fine with windows, and secondly because my powerhorse OSX dual G4 800Mhz box is currently in my mothers posetion.

I lent it to her when I went to college, and now when I ask for it back she's allways got something she seems to need it for  

I personally think, she dosn't wanna go back to that old ass 333Mhz rev. B iMac she had been using for like ever.

heh, when I get a good job first thing I'll buy is a new Mac for my mum.  

Enugh of that tho... ya, Im done.

[Stryker]

have u tried running linux on a mac? i've heard of it all the time but never heard about how well it ran or anything. Some people suppose it's good and I tend to believe that. If you have, how was it? performance?

[psyjax]

quote:Originally posted by Stryker:
have u tried running linux on a mac? i've heard of it all the time but never heard about how well it ran or anything. Some people suppose it's good and I tend to believe that. If you have, how was it? performance?

Ya, I ran YDL on my dual 800Mhz... it didn't recognize my vid card so I had shitty video with inverted colors.

And they still havent got the drivers!

For whatever reason the YDL people are incapable or somehow coming up with good nVidia drivers. In any case, it runs just as well as on a PC.

MOL (Mac on Linux) is about as fast as Classic is on OSX....

I dunno what to say, it's just like any other Linux I have used. Similar in most respects to Redhat 8 in layout, and package choice.

[slvadcjelli42]

In response to Fury's post long, long ago on this thread: Dell offers a few "workstations" with Redhat 8/9 installed... (http://www.dell.com/linux)

[suselinux]

I think its funny that this thread got so long, they alawys seem to when you say apple has faults.

so here's one more

The G5 hype will soon have a 64bit cloud over its head, looking something like this


web page

[Faust]

quote:
I agree that Linux is going to be the OS that takes out M$, but hopefully Apple will back up the battles.

Yavohl.  Unless Apple starts agressively targeting MS customers instead of pandering to an established fan base they aren't going anywhere.  And ads aimed straight at Unix users don't exactly make it look like Apple is even brave enough to go directly against MS.

   

quote:
Apple is not proprietary

Apple *is* at least partly proprieatry.  Cough quicktime?  This is microsoft tactics apple, and I've seen you all bagging Microsoft because of them.  Why should Microsoft users have to download a crap Apple video player just to watch your movies?  Why should Linux users have to try and reverse engineer your video format?  For that matter consider the fact that according to Apple we should only be using non GUI interfaces.  Unless that is we pay Apple millions for using their concept.  You cant own a god damn idea, what kind of stupid idea is it to sue a competitior for using it?  It would be like the inventors of Unix suing DOS for using the "command line concept."

edit: yeah yeah yeah, VMS blah blah, so Unix wasnt the first.  I know that, really    

   

quote:
I have never seen a restautant divulge recipies with their customers' orders,

I have.  That said I dont care if there are proprietary apps out there provided they dont try and force me to use there crap products with lock in formats (.mov, .doc) or try and make me use closed drivers for the priviledge of using their hardware.  Ie proprietary software doesnt bother me at all - provided I dont have to use it.

edit r be affected by it in any way.

   

quote:
Companies should not be forced to divulge their source code, period.

They should if they are trying to use closed "standards" to make people use their products.  BTW this one is not a Mac flame, but a generic closed format flame.

   

quote:
If Apple wants to be closed source, fine be me, as long as when MS goes down, they wont try to pull another Bill Gates on us. If they dont anything of that nature, they will have my support.

I myself am suspicious about this.  Does Apple simply aspire to be another monopoly or are they more altruistic?

   

quote:
Apple will be a real competitor when they decide to pull their head out of their asses and do what they should have done decades ago. Make their OS run with different kinds of CPUs and Motherboards. A real hacker (not cracker) wont stand to be locked in specific hardware.

Well said.

   

quote:
Yeah but do they expect? People locking themselves into specific hardware? I really like the fact that I can choose from a plethora of hardware. Its all about freedom. Make it run in as many platforms as possible. Then you got something cooking.Otherwise its just greed, unless though am missing something here and I would like somebody to explain it to me.

[faust applauds]
And no I'm not saying that the hardware isnt good.  I'm saying that I will not have what hardware I can use chosen by someone else.

   

quote:
And for the most part it is the way a lot of OSS businesses would *have* to work. But I believe companies should make money with value-added services, much like Redhat does.

That's entirely possible with games today IMO.  Make a cool Massive Multiplayer game and then all you have to do is have the best (or even just the first) server for that game and charge people for using your server.  How much more popular would UO be if you had heaps of geeks churning out new versions that would all work fine on a central UO server?  (With md5 checking of course so that everyone has the same version.)  Yeah, if the server was open source some dude could easily set up a UO server.  But with the amount of power needed for a big game server nowadays, a home hobbyist just isnt going to have the ability, nor is he going to be able to compete with the larger central UO server which has the time to do a good job.  And everyone will use the central server because in most games more players is always better.

   

quote:
I hate to say it penguin people but macs run a lot more games than linux does. Anywho i wouldn't mind Linux if it was built more like os x.

Macs run a lot less games than Windows does, does that make them worse?  And I sure as hell wouldnt mind OSX if it was more like Linux.      

   

quote:
while enumerable, are mind bogglingly confusing to the common user, this confusion is then magnafied when said user actually tries to install something.Not to mention the gobledigook system hiarchy, usr/dev/hda01 .... oh, that's my hardrive!!

Mac OSX is easier for newbies.  Doesn't mean it's any better for the rest of us.

   

quote:
simplicity sells

       said it yourself

   

quote:
I tell linux geeks to grow up.

What was so immature?  It was a Mac geek, not a Linux one who said we should suicide bomb redmond.  Just because we prefer Linux and open source to Macs and closed source we're suddenly immature?  Why?

   

quote:
.... I can hear the natives getting restless
Psyjax! I RULEZZZZ!!! HAR HAR HAR

You're intentionally trying to piss us off and *we* should grow up?

   

quote:
GNU is all the screwy stuff Linux is jsut the Kernel

Back off on GNU.  Where would Linux be if not for their work?  How would it have done if the initial rush of developers were deprived of GCC?  You want to start a flame war bagging the GNU project go ahead, I'm more than willing to show you why the GNU project was and still is vital.

   

quote:
Re:flaming KDE/Gnome
Confusing? I don't really get what's confusing about them. Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

Yep, they may confuse someone who is locked into thinking about desktop "paradigms" which always involve a massive block in the center bottom of the screen but those of us who are more free
thinking find them very easy to us.

   

quote:
Not to mention the fact that a kernel update is needed like every other day due to bugfixes and new drivers.

That's just plain FUD, not to mention that it shows how little you know about Linux.

   

quote:
Ya, simple. Were are all my programs?

I have no idea where programs on a Mac are kept, you have no idea where programs on Linux are kept.  Only difference being I dont claim that the Mac is difficult to use because of it.  Maybe you're mistaking different for difficult?

   

quote:
Even if Aqua somehow prettied up Linux, the very design of the OS works at odds to a simple computing environment.

Know much about OS design do we or are you simply spreading more FUD?  What precisely is wrong with the design?

   

quote:
The games industry has been fucked up for quite sometime, and needs a rebirth.

Yeah remember Descent 2?  Starcraft?  Or Quake 1 or Doom 2 - how fun was doom 2!  And then when doom 3 comes out it's supposed to be a fucking "survival horror."  Survival horror sucks, gimme some real action...  Modern games (including BF1942 and Warcraft 3 which both suck badly) need a shake up.

   

quote:
 as far as why the variety of programs goes, the confusion arises when you install a tipical linux distro, you usualy get a dozen programs that do the same think, with no simple de-install method, and no real indication as to the quality or usefullness of the particular program.

Hmm let me remove blackbox.  Start synaptic.  Click blackbox.  Click remove.  Whoa!  Its similar in Mandrake / Hat - big list of programs, click the one you want to change.  Mandrake had a button labelled "remove programs" FFS how hard can it be?

   

quote:
It's not that you can't learn the linux file hiarchy, it's more like Who

Installation is as simople as double click and it ALLWAYS works.

Really?  I've seen a lot of "[application] has unexpectedly quit" on OSX.

   

quote:
I know there are GUI configuration tools, but these are never perfect

FUD

   

quote:
Can you learn it? sure.  Am I, a common every day fool gonna want to?

Oh so we want an OS that aims to fools do we?  Apple can aim for fools all it likes, I'm sticking with an OS aimed for me.

   

quote:
It's not that you can't learn the linux file hiarchy, it's more like Who wants to?

I dont want to learn the mac one  . Most users aren't even aware that there is a file hiarchy. They just click what they want to open.

[faust cheers]

   

quote:
So ya, it's confusing, and overwhelming to a new user. Indeed my mom could easely jump on redhat and send an email, brows a site, type a letter on a preconfigd installation, but should she ever want to configure things diffrently shes out of luck.

Speaking of which how do you think I would go if I wanted to use a different WM on a Mac?  Or set it up as a firewall / router?  Mac OSX has far more of a problem with configurability than Linux.

   

quote:
Im not bashing linux, I don't think it sux, I just think that it's structure as curently implimented is at odds with a simple desktop OS.

Maybe we don't want it dumbed down?

   

quote:
So it becomes hard for a newb to figure out what he wants in teh first place.

You're telling me OSX actually psychically suggests to the user what they should install next?  Like "you need a new word processor..." kinda thing?      

   

quote:
That thing is tripped out! Talk about high-quality production. Not saying its the most powerful or addictive game but undeniably it's a very well-designed game.

Anyone else played Egoboo?  Addictive little cow of a game!

[ August 05, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]

[ August 05, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]

[jasonlane]

quote: Apple *is* at least partly proprieatry.  Cough quicktime?  This is microsoft tactics apple, and I've seen you all bagging Microsoft because of them.  Why should Microsoft users have to download a crap Apple video player just to watch your movies?

Hmmm, yup but Quicktime is the defacto standard for many industries now, film, broadcasting etc. It's also fully standards compliant (MPEG), most "other" standards aren't. I wouldn't say Quicktime is crap.

 

quote: Back off on GNU.  Where would Linux be if not for their work?  How would it have done if the initial rush of developers were deprived of GCC?  You want to start a flame war bagging the GNU project go ahead, I'm more than willing to show you why the GNU project was and still is vital.

Apple use alot of GNU works. GCC is the default Apple compiler. I use GNU stuff all the time on OS X.


 

quote:Oh so we want an OS that aims to fools do we?  Apple can aim for fools all it likes, I'm sticking with an OS aimed for me.  

Good for you but I don't think the 1000's of developers worldwide, for example ASF developers, that choose to use OS X as their OS of choice  would be happy with that statement.


 

quote: Speaking of which how do you think I would go if I wanted to use a different WM on a Mac?  Or set it up as a firewall / router?  Mac OSX has far more of a problem with configurability than Linux

Utter rubbish!

[ August 05, 2003: Message edited by: Zardoz ]

[Faust]

quote:
Hmmm, yup but Quicktime is the defacto standard for many industries now, film, broadcasting etc. It's also fully standards compliant (MPEG), most "other" standards aren't. I wouldn't say Quicktime is crap.

Defacto standard?  "Why should we have to publish how .doc works?  Office is the de facto standard so why don't you just use it?"  Jeez, this sounds familiar.  It would also be nice if we didn't have to use Quicktime player with it's awful UI and listen to it's constant "please pay for pro version!" whingeing.

 

quote:
Apple use alot of GNU works. GCC is the default Apple compiler. I use GNU stuff all the time on OS X.

Yavohl.  I was talking to suselinux btw.  

 

quote:
Good for you but I don't think the 1000's of developers worldwide, for example ASF developers, that choose to use OS X as their OS of choice would be happy with that statement.

I wasn't the one that said that apple was for average fools.

 

quote:
Speaking of which how do you think I would go if I wanted to use a different WM on a Mac? Or set it up as a firewall / router? Mac OSX has far more of a problem with configurability than Linux
Utter rubbish!

Alright then lets see you build a beowulf cluster from Macs.  Or put the Mac OS on a PDA...

[raptor]

calyptos will hopefully solve all these problems that current users of windows have on switching to the "penguin".

it will be substantially easier to use and will be equipped with an alotment of eye candy! :-D

*calyptos.com will be done soon, which will include progress of the OS, features and release dates.

*be prepared we will need beta testers!

[suselinux]

One step closer

web page

Disney funded a GPL project to add full PHOTOSHOP support to WINE

Because it's GPL it was snatched up and put into Crossover office, but is still available for regular old wine.

I say one step closer because so many have said that if PHOTOSHOP support switched from MAC to LINUX, Apple would die.

frankly, I can't see PHOTOSHOP ever leaving Apple,
they complement each other too well, they always have.

BUT all of this does make LINUX all the more desirable for the desktop.

[raptor]

*also on the maturity of linux issue.

it must be mature if their are 5 people at major book giant barnes&noble, reading up on linux instead of the 0 windows readers.

[raptor]

quote: I say one step closer because so many have said that if PHOTOSHOP support switched from MAC to LINUX, Apple would die.

NO. apple isnt going to plunge for quite sometime. i have said this before but apple computers are very powerful graphically. *Linux may have good graphical support but apple will still dominate the graphical market for awhile.