Serious question for WIN advocates

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by www.unixsucks.com:
So this was your points???!!!!!
Remember what came first ASP or PHP.

Heh heh, if you think that matters then you must remember which came first, UNIX or Windows.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[www.unixsucks.com]

The reason why i don't go to www.windowsbbs.com is becouse I don't like message boards where all people do is praise their religion.
Why am I here? I hoped that I'll learn something from you or other *NIX gurus here which would tell me why would I need to consider abandoning Microsoft and it's products. Despite the contraversion TCO I don't know any other reasons and I certainly did not receive any valuable points from you either. So when you go and face somebody that knows what he is doing, it's not that easy to sell your religion, is it?
I wish I would be on that sales pitches by *NIX advocates which trying to sell their technology to some uneducated people to defend and show other side of the story. But sorry, I'm not allowed to, even in free world of Internet I have my messages removed by forum moderators.
That's really weak.

[voidmain]

Well according to your profile you are 30 years old. You came here acting more like a 10 year old. I don't know about you but I don't make my decisions based on what other people say or by some hyped up marketing speal.  I pick my software based on merits of my experiences with both.  

I have a lot of experience in both and even though I've used/supported both over the last 15 years I have made my choices as to which I heavily prefer.  Maybe you should do yourself (and your clients) a favor and learn something for yourself and then present what makes the most sense for each individual application.

And by the way, this is *not* a pro-UNIX site.  It's an ANTI-M$ site.  So why don't you go over to the Mac forums on this site and start a flame war there, they will appreciate it.

[www.unixsucks.com]

Am I acting as 10 y.o? Was not it you who called names and insulted me personally. How mature of you! At least I send you private message not public.
Becouse I don't consider Mac and Windows competitors on server market.
You are out of arguments why *NIX is better, don't you, admit it and I'll be out of your hair.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: http://www.unixsucks.com ]

[voidmain]

Ok, I am out of arguments why *NIX is better, now begone..

[badkarma]

From a programmer who has been working with linux a bit over a year, but never used it before that time (i.e. me):

I would kill myself if I ever had to program using windows again. Buggy and crashprone IDE's, sloppy MS API's (puh lease... the WIN32 API is a fucking joke, MFC is a OO wrapper around the W32 API which makes it even more horrible, because there are a lot of functions with a zillion parameters of which you only use a small portion, if you see the code a few months later you'll have to look twice to see what's going on)

If I had to code for windows again, I'd just use a cross compiler, code under linux and once in a while build a windows version (using magnificent toolkits like Qt or SDL)

Visual Basic teaches you *extremely* bad programming habits (it is not ok for a programmer to get used to the fact that his language has some kind of magical built in typecasting system, which makes for some incredibly ugly code).

The only thing which could be considered an advantage a windows developer has is autocompletion, however this is a moot point imo because it does not greatly speed up a programmers work and it creates mindless programmers who don't truly know the tools they use, and this is also available for linux (with Borland's Kylix 3.0

And the greatest advantage yet is that for practically any library you use you have the source code available, now this greatly speeds up development time because it is much easier to find out what is going on if you can step through library functions with a debugger.

The miriad of debugging tools available are pure heaven, nothing (and I mean nothing) available for windows can touch the strace command.

Compile times under linux are a lot faster then compiling the same program under windows. Linux caches all the files it needs for the make process and has no HDD activity while compiling (I have a lot of RAM   ), windows has a lot of HDD activity. On big projects this can differ a few minutes per build.

Now these are all technical (and imnsho irrefutable) points linux has over windows.

oh and eh....

[puts on spelling nazi cap]
you had thirty years (according to your profile) to become at least a little bit proficient with your own language yet you manage to create sentences like the following:

 

quote:
So this was your points???!!!

 

quote:
What you've been smoking?

 

quote:
You can read your email without getting virus? I can also!

Now excuse me, but I'm nine years younger then you, english is not my first language and I can even produce better sentences than that crap.

Let me guess, english is the only language you know too?

[takes off spelling nazi cap]

[www.unixsucks.com]

No, English is not my native language. My native language is Russian. Satisfied?
Have you seen VB.NET? If you have not then please don't post article about how bad VB is without digging down.

[voidmain]

I knew you would lie, just like Microsoft always does, about getting out of our hair.  No, I have not seen VB.NET.  Can you give us some reasons as to why we should switch from our tried and true languages to this one?

[dbl221]

Every company or Hopital I have worked for has had a policy of testing ALL software in the lab before it is installed in production.  This is done for very solid business and technical reasons.  With the new M$ OS versions and Licence arrangements you are forced to have unauthorized software installed throughout the organization.  This is of course NOT in the best interests of the organizations which use M$ crapware...er I mean software.

I would love to know why BIG and I mean BIG companies put up with this situation.  Perhaps unixsucks dude can explain this to me.

[badkarma]

quote:No, English is not my native language. My native language is Russian. Satisfied?

ok, then I will leave my spelling nazi cap off      

(it's just that your credibility is directly related to the effort you put in your posts)

 

quote:
Have you seen VB.NET? If you have not then please don't post article about how bad VB is without digging down.

Without ever having seen VB.NET I am 99% sure that they did not change a damned thing to my biggest gripe with VB, the magical typecasting (i.e. use a integer DIM, then use it as a string, then use it as a double). You cannot imagine how hard it is to maintain code like this, further most time critical stuff is done in C/C++ and then used as a .OCX or a .DLL with visual basic.

Visual basic programs are slow, and on most win9x systems you'll get the added bonus of having to download a few Mb's of DLL's over a 56k6 modem to run a program of 500Kb.

Furthermore, all my other points still stand (if you would have read my post you might have noticed that it didn't only cover VB).

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: BadKarma ]

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: BadKarma ]

[www.unixsucks.com]

You don't need to read this thread if you don't want to.
And I'm not advocating using VB.NET, in fact I prefer C#, what is important here is .NET Framework and things which it make possible now which were not possible before. All languages are now fully OO oriented, there is no third class languages any more. In fact there is Perl.NET and Cobol.NET. The reason why all languages are equal is becouse they provide just interface to CLR (Common Language Runtime), so you can compile your project to IL (intermediate languge) which are JIT compiled at run-time to processor-specific code. Have you noted that "processor-specic"? Yes, .NET would be portable to different platforms. Look here http://www.go-mono.com/.
And to reply to Karma. You have an "Option Strict" in VB.NET so if you want automated casteing then you turn it off if you want type safe operation then you turn it on. So may be you need first to look at product before judging it?

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: http://www.unixsucks.com ]

[voidmain]

I think I'll .NOT.  M$ was just pissed because Sun called them on breaking Java.  Typical M$ tactics...

[www.unixsucks.com]

Oh, yes? Then what is this about - http://www.dotgnu.org
How come *NIX world is copying M$ now?
I assume you are not familiar with .NET Framework so let's leave it where it is, just gray area of your expertise. All people whom I knew (including die hard UNIX/Java/Open source fanatics) were really impressed with what M$ did with .NET.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: http://www.unixsucks.com ]

[badkarma]

quote:Originally posted by www.unixsucks.com:
You don't need to read this thread if you don't want to.
And I'm not advocating using VB.NET, in fact I prefer C#, what is important here is .NET Framework and things which it make possible now which were not possible before. All languages are now fully OO oriented, there is no third class languages any more. In fact there is Perl.NET and Cobol.NET. The reason why all languages are equal is becouse they provide just interface to CLR (Common Language Runtime), so you can compile your project to IL (intermediate languge) which are JIT compiled at run-time to processor-specific code. Have you noted that "processor-specic"? Yes, .NET would be portable to different platforms. Look here http://www.go-mono.com/.
And to reply to Karma. You have an "Option Strict" in VB.NET so if you want automated casteing then you turn it off if you want type safe operation then you turn it on. So may be you need first to look at product before judging it?

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: www.unixsucks.com ]

And now what this means in the real world:

There is one underlying language which propagates its bugs and errors (and we all know how well MS is at writing bug free code  :rolleyes: ) to all the languages which use it. A simple buffer overflow error (and we all know that microsoft never created these  :rolleyes: ) could leave hundreds of applications vulnarable for god knows how long (because we all know how fast MS is with bugfixes  :rolleyes: ).

And I can already see a virus being created to customize the JIT compiler a little bit, seeing it compiles every program you run (once at least, but the same virus could just wipe the JIT cache and force it to recompile). The stuff which could happen in this scenario is beyond any form of decription....

And I didn't judge about VB.NET, and I never will because there is no way in hell I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars to buy a product just to test it (and probably discover that I like C++ better anyway   ).

You ask our opinions, but you already had your mind made up before you even asked. Why again do you bother to even post here? Or are you just another troll like windows xp user 585394858? Because something is seriously wrong with you if you're 30 and still like to troll message boards.....

[www.unixsucks.com]

You don't need to buy VB.NET!
You download .NET framework and use vb compiler which comes with it. C'mon stop acting childish yourself, if you don't know thing about subject then just quit talking about it.