Got a 3rd computer, gonna start with Linux

[Ctrl Alt Del 123]

Put together a 600 MHz, 256 MB RAM and 30 Gig HD computer and want to try something new and so I'm heading for Linux. I've already decided on mandrake to try first, and then will dual/triple whatever boot with more and more flavors some other time.

However, I hit a block. Bare with me, I'm completely new and don't want to start off wrong. So far this is what I know, don't know if it's right though.

From Unix comes Linux. Is Linux just a kernel or a full OS with no GUI? And, KDE and GNOME are 2 popular GUI's right? What is this X/X Windows?

[TheQuirk]

From Unix comes Linux. Is Linux just a kernel or a full OS with no GUI?

-Linux, "strictly speaking" is just a kernel, but when you buy a distro/download it (in this case Mandrake) it will come as an OS, including a bunch of programs, and a "GUI" as you say. Mandrake comes with 11 different once, including Gnome and KDE, and you can choice which one you want to use when you load the computer/log out.


What is this X/X Windows?

**Copy from the XFree86 Project site**
-It provides a client/server interface between display hardware (the mouse, keyboard, and video displays) and the desktop environment while also providing both the windowing infrastructure and a standardized application interface (API).

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: TheQuirk ]

[Ctrl Alt Del 123]

Thanks, 5 stars.

[Calum]

careful though, linux is not unix and does not contain any unix code, since unix is a proprietary OS copyrighted to AT&T Bell, BSD is not unix either and it contains no unix code.

BSD is based on unix though, it has been changed so much internally that no Bell Labs code exists in current distros though. Linux is based on minix, though i think i am right in saying no minix code exists in linux. minix is a small OS written specifically to show students of computer science how an OS works. minix has no unix code, linux has no unix or minix code.

BSD, linux and unix apparently are all incredibly similar from the point of view of somebody using them though, i wouldn't know from first hand experience but from what i read, a lot of effort has gone into cloning as much as possible from one proprietary environment to another free, open source environment.

a round of applause for that i say!

[voidmain]

No one actually uses "UNIX" these days. Everyone uses "UNIX Like" operating systems but usually refer to those OSs as "UNIX", even if incorrectly.  Linux is as much UNIX as BSD, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, SCO or any of the others. If you can get around in one you can get around in any of them (unless you are a Windows user of course, then you can't seem to get around in any of them).

[MikeU]

It's not fair to state that BSD is based on UNIX. BSD and AT&T/Bell Labs version of UNIX were worked on in parallel. Some things that were originally made at Berkeley got integrated into the "official" UNIX and visa versa. The history of a lot of the different flavors of UNIX are intertwined, so saying one is based on the other is not fair.

According to Linus Torvalds' Biography "Just for FUN," (2001) Linus based Linux on the POSIX standard from nearly the begining. And if I remember correctly, he couldn't get official POSIX standard documentation, so he used a Sun MicroSystems manual as a model. So stating that Linux was based on Minix is just untrue. He made Linux because he was unsatisfied with Minix. Plus, the source code for Minix was already available, he could have just copied it, if he wanted it to be based on Minix.

I did some papers on both the Free Software movement, and Linus Torvalds this term.   )
So this stuff is still fresh in my mind.

Mike U

[voidmain]

BSD didn't fork off until the very late 70's around 10 years after Ken Thompson created UNIX at Bell Labs. And GNU/Linux has many BSD like features, along with AT&T like features. The thing I like about GNU/Linux is that it is written by a wide range of people very experienced in UNIX, BSD, and other UNIX like operating systems. It has incorporated many of the good features of the others, plus some of it's own where the others lack. It can be set up to be very BSD like or System V like (init, printing, etc). Of course BSD has a similar story as far as programmer experience. And certainly GNU/Linux has to give great credit to UNIX, BSD, MINIX, Solaris, and even Windows to be what it is today and what it will surely become.

As far as I'm concerned, right or wrong, UNIX today is (or should be) a general term that would include all UNIX Like OSs. It would sure make life much simpler, and maybe there would be more cooperation between the variants rather than the territorial type of behavior often exhibited. I would like to think, and find it to be the case, that if you know one of the UNIX like OSs very well, the others take very little time to learn. Every one of them are far more advanced than the original UNIX. I seriously doubt there is a single line of the original UNIX in any OS used today. The thing that I don't understand is why it has to be such a big deal? They're all good.

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Calum]

that's a good point about being "based on" something else though, there i was being pedantic about the difference between unix and unix-like and i totally failed to be pedantic (or reasonably accurate!) about who did what first.

True, linux was not based on minix, but it ws developed because of Linus Torvalds' annoyance with minix not being developed any further than as an educational tool, as you say.

Also, yes, I am reading about the history of Unix/Berkeley at the moment and it does look like a lot of institutions had bright sparks that all contributed ideas to the official unix OS, based on their own customisations on their own systems...

Finally, wouldn't it be cool to play around on a real AT&T Unix system? (and wouldn't it be cool to own an old valve computer? sorry, taking things a little too far!) i bet it was a whole different ball game...

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Calum:
Finally, wouldn't it be cool to play around on a real AT&T Unix system? (and wouldn't it be cool to own an old valve computer? sorry, taking things a little too far!) i bet it was a whole different ball game...

Uh, my first UNIX job was on a 3B2 running an earlier version of AT&T UNIX.  I would rather not go back there, and it certainly wasn't one of the earliest versions by any stretch of the imagination.  It would be sort of like going back to pre-windows DOS 1 for those that only have M$ experience.

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Calum]

i bet it was a hair tearer, but still, think of the retro chic of having a "legacy" system like that in your home!!!

[voidmain]

I already have WAY too much junk in my house.    The wife would kick me out of the house if I added that door stop to my collection.

[Calum]

but what a cool way to stop doors open!!!                                              

I had to post these pictures i found of 3B2s, to see if other people think they are cool!




I got these pix from The Obsolete Computer Museum and The Venturing Crew 369's Equipment List, in case anybody's interested!

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[voidmain]

Yeah, the one I worked on was the middle pic (not sure if our's was a Model 70 but it had the same case).

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by MikeU:

According to Linus Torvalds' Biography "Just for FUN," (2001) Linus based Linux on the POSIX standard from nearly the begining. And if I remember correctly, he couldn't get official POSIX standard documentation, so he used a Sun MicroSystems manual as a model. So stating that Linux was based on Minix is just untrue. He made Linux because he was unsatisfied with Minix. Plus, the source code for Minix was already available, he could have just copied it, if he wanted it to be based on Minix.

I did some papers on both the Free Software movement, and Linus Torvalds this term.       )
So this stuff is still fresh in my mind.

Mike U

One other thing that is important to note when you refer to Linus' contributions. Linus did not create the operating system, only the kernel (which is the most critical piece, granted). Most of the Linux "OS" or "distros" which as a whole one would compare to "UNIX".  Most of the base operating system is created by the GNU developers.  Then on top of that you have XFree which came out of the MIT X. On top of that you have KDE and Gnome. A lot of the same packages are used in both Linux (the OS) and BSD. It's the kernel itself where the big differences are.

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]