Adding Packages - RedHat 7.3

[Doogee]

hello all.

im having a bit of trouble ading packages in redhat. i need all the development tools but it makes you select individual packages its very annoying and i dont want to do it because it says some crap about dependencies. ive seen screenshots where u can just clik development and it does it, is there anyway i can do this?

[Calum]

sorry to hijack this thread but this flags up the problem of there not being a proper package management system for linux yet, its only serious omission. rpm is good however it is not perfect.
I am sorry i cannot help you with this one. i know void main will know the exact answer you need and i know several other people will also. Now at the risk of hijacking your thread, let me just post this:

Code: [Select]

I found out about 'install' while ssh-ing into grex, (they have it on their SunOS4.1 twin aplha machine) and i noticed with some surprise that the version they have installed is GNU/FSF! So if this install program is FSF, there will be a linux version, why is that not the standard? I know many would say there are more advanced programs with more advanced features, but are those features just getting in the way?

What we need are to use install as the standard and for the FSF to come up with another program (call it 'dependlist' or something) to be used in conjunction with install to make the dependencygoround much less of a headache for people, and a comprehensive 'installed packages' database system (it should be 100% compatible with the rpm package database) to top off the trio. These utils could use all the normal pipes and so on that other utils use. This philosophy of several small but powerful utilities working together has served *nix for decades and i think it should be upheld for that reason. People will
quickly write frontends that pipe them all together anyway so an increase in functionality needn't mean confusion for the less initiated.

Why do i rarely get dependencies in windows? I don't think i have ever installed a program and had more than one dependency in windows. (and it's NOT often you hear me saying something is better in windows than in linux. Now somebody slap me sharply if this is about to turn into a 'what would be ideal' type thread. that's fine if it is, but i don't want to stop people from answering Doogee's question, so pardon me if i have stolen the limelight, back to Doogee's question now...

Final word: Doogee, do you have kpackage installed? I find it is quite useful, but not perfect. It seems to search the directory that your rpms/.tgz files are in and look for installable files to satisfy the dependencies.

I think gnorpm is okay from memory too. not sure.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Doogee:
hello all.

im having a bit of trouble ading packages in redhat. i need all the development tools but it makes you select individual packages its very annoying and i dont want to do it because it says some crap about dependencies. ive seen screenshots where u can just clik development and it does it, is there anyway i can do this?

I assume the RPMs you are trying to install are from the RedHat CD from which you installed RedHat.  If that is not a correct assumption let me know.  If you try and install an RPM and it tells you it depends on another RPM package, install that other RPM package first.

And no matter what anyone tells you, this dependency is a good thing. If it didn't let you know that the package you were trying to install depended on something else and let you install it anyway, you would be scratching your head wondering why it didn't work after you installed it.

[Calum]

i know, i know, i agree, however i think there should be some sort of downloadable dependency database. It could list all known programs for *nix, and their dependencies. The program i envision (dependlist, as mentioned above) would access that database remotely or locally (much like the FreeCDDB) and would be able to tell you what dependencies a package would have before you download it for instance.

Also, say the package you are installing has eight dependencies. How many of them have dependencies? well dependlist would be able to tell you.

Of course it would only be as good as its last database update but i think it could work.

though, i still say, why do i get less dependencies in windows? it's either because everything's bundled (ie everybody is reinventing the wheel) or because the programs are installing without even checking for dependencies, yes? i prefer the former. Maybe RPMs should come in normal format and 'dependencies included' format. Where it could be like a big tarball of all the dependencies as well as the program. Especially useful if you had a different version of a program than that which is required (like all that rubbish about some things need gcc 2.96 to compile, and some won't compile on gcc 2.96)

[voidmain]

Regarding the database of dependencies etc.  That already exists.  You have an RPM database on your hard drive that contains the name of the RPM, the version, what the RPM depends on (other packages and minimum version levels), a file list, etc etc. Say you get a new RPM, within that RPM in addition to the actual software is a dependency list. This list is matched up with your database to determine if you have all minimum prereqs installed. The biggest wish most people probably have are that RPM resolves these dependencies automatically (by downloading and installing prerequisite software automatically).  That would be a nice option to turn on and there are utilities out there that can do this but it is not something *I* would prefer.  I can see where n00bs would prefer this.

However, this functionality exists if you use Ximian's Red Carpet program (download and install drom Ximian's web site) and similar RPM apps. In fact I think RedHat 8.0's new installer will do this for you as well but I haven't actually had a chance to look at it yet.

With Windows some applications do dependency checking.  They typically check which version of Windows you are running and if you don't use a specific version of Windows it may not allow you to install it. But the base Windows OS never changes. You don't do functionality upgrades on specific pieces of the OS, except for things like IE etc, in which case how many times have you installed a windows app and it says it requires "IE 5.5 or above"?  Or worse yet, it assumes you have IE 5.5 and installs anyway only to find out that it doesn't work without IE 5.5.  Same difference.  

Windows install method is completely brain dead compared to RPM.  Just open up kpackage for a minor scratching of what RPM can do for you. Believe me, kpackage only presents 1% of the RPM capability but it still gives you a lot more information about the installed programs.

[Calum]

okay, but my main wishlist feature is not the one where it autodownloads stuff for me, i am happy for it to inform me what else i need to get however i have two beefs with the current system:

1) i get a list of dependencies. example, now i have got and installed xpm, i still have to resolve three dependencies to install wine. They are all filename.so so how am i going to find them? do they come in rpms? do i have to find out which other app provides these and install that? The dependencies as i see them are listed in a format i am unable to actually search for in real life.

2) Say i want to install a DVD player, but i currently have no multimedia stuff installed. There will be maybe 12 dependencies. I could get all of those rpms for all twelve of those programs. So now, each of those has between six and ten dependencies of its own! some of those are duplicates, and some depend on each other! there must be some correct order to install them in! there must be some way to find out if you do have all the files you need before embarking on an installfest!

the rpm database only extends by a length of one dependency. I would like a database that resolves every arm on each dependency family tree.

Sometimes this dependencies thing is really dumb. I have snes9x for windows. It does not depend on anything. It takes binary files ripped from Super Nintendo cartridges and emulates the original games. I also have snes9x for linux. sadly i do not know what it does since it depends on four other things! even the nintendo emulator depends on four things! i have a 99kb standalone nintendo emulator for windows, it has NO other files of its own, need not be installed and can be run from any directory including a floppy. Why can this not be implemented in linux?

I just think this could be cleaned up a bit better.

I downloaded the demo of uplink recently for linux. eight dependencies. I found four online and then gave up (couldn't match the version numbers), so i downloaded the windows version. Runs fine. Pretty sad really, that i'm lowered to playing what games i do play on windows, even though i know they run in linux.

Anyway i have harped on about this for much too long, those are my thoughts, i am sure rpm is excellent however it does not address the immediate issues in my opinion.

[voidmain]

I agree that some of your examples can be a pain in the arse but can be easily resolved with an appropriate interface such as Red Carpet or what I am hoping to see from RedHat 8.0. I usually have no trouble matching up those specific library names by a simple query to http://www.rpmfind.net/ which does spit out the appropriate RPM package name and thus contains the database you are wishing for.

For some of those cases it might just be easier to get the *.src.rpm and do an "rpm --rebuild file.src.rpm", which also may not have satisfied dependencies.  Because there are many different Linux versions and distros, standardizing software installation can be difficult, however it get's better all the time. It has never been so much of an issue for me that I ever had even the slightest thought of going back to Windows.  

All I can say is, things keep getting better and I fully expect that trend to continue.  You might voice your opinions to all the major distro vendors although I am sure they are hearing you already.

[Calum]

you say a lot of encouraging things, and i think that maybe a lot of my frustration comes from not knowing how to work rpm properly.

here's hoping red hat will do what you say.

[Doogee]

hey voidmain im trying to install the developments tools from the 3 redhat CDs cos i dint think i need them but i need the compilers and stuff, eg java c c++ gcc stuff like that, i would also like to get into writing my own programs in C or C++ but thats not my top priority atm.

[sporkme]

...i have found that mandrake is very good at this, and if i need a rpm i just google it.

there should be a clearer standard, granted, but it's no emergency. it tells you exactly what is missing.


edit: i guess that i have always found it quite simple, with a little reading and a dash of toying.


good luck!

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: sporkme / bob ]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Doogee:
hey voidmain im trying to install the developments tools from the 3 redhat CDs cos i dint think i need them but i need the compilers and stuff, eg java c c++ gcc stuff like that, i would also like to get into writing my own programs in C or C++ but thats not my top priority atm.

I would suggest sticking your RedHat CDs in the drive one by one, mounting them on /mnt/cdrom and as root start up "gnorpm", click "install" and select everything you need under the "development" tree.

Let me know if that does not work for you....

[Doogee]

thats what i did and it showed the dependency thing... its like 500 packages or something the 500 dependencies....

[voidmain]

If you have that many unresolved dependencies then I think you must be doing something odd. I have a feeling you are trying to install all of the packages with the "-devel" in their name. You do not need to do that, unless you are trying to write code against that particular package. Or compile source written against that particular app. The *-devel-* packages contain headers and static libraries for their associated app, not needed to run the app but needed to be able to reuse the libraries from that app in another app.

For writing C/C++ apps you should only need around 10 packages, some of which are probably already installed: gcc, gcc-c++, binutils, cpp, glibc, glibc-common, glibc-devel, info, bash. Many source packages might also want "bison" and "flex" so you might want to install them as well. I would suggest you start small. Just try and install gcc, which will tell you it depends on a few other packages, go back and select those few other packages and try again.

With RPM there is maximum flexibility on what pieces you want installed, however that makes it a little more difficult in other areas (for now, but that soon will change). In the mean time, I have a feeling I can get you the exact functionality that you are looking for by downloading and installing Ximian's Red Carpet:

http://www.ximian.com/products/redcarpet/download.html

Download and install the Red Carpet rpm then type:

# red-carpet

Enter a proxy server if needed. Then click "Unsubscribed Channels" on the left. Then click "Red Hat Linux 7.3". At the top, click the "Install" icon. Find and select anything you want listed under "development utilities" and/or "development packages" like "gcc", "make", etc. If the packages you select to install require other packages it will tell you, and it will install those other packages.  I believe/hope this particular functionality is available in RedHat 8.0 (as an option).

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]

[Calum]

hey, just to say:

there's another good rpm frontend called rpminst that i just encountered. Just thought i would mention it. it's a bit easier than kpackage.