Author Topic: The Linux Standard Base  (Read 665 times)

hoojchoons

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The Linux Standard Base
« on: 13 May 2002, 20:50 »
When I first started getting involved in the world of Open Source by trying out Linux (about 5 years ago), I was under the impression that the various distributions of Linux were more or less uniformly designed. It didn't take long though before I realized that there were (and still are) certain differences amongst them like the directory trees, the init scripts, the package formats etc.

Recently, I came across thisweb page. Now, most sceptics say that Linux will never become a real threat to M$ in the desktop while others say that Linux will prevail in a few years from now. What's your opinion about this? Do you think that a common base for Linux distros will be of help towards that direction or not?

voidmain

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« Reply #1 on: 13 May 2002, 23:22 »
yes and no.  yes Linux will prevail and no they do not need to be exactly alike.  I like the way certain distros are laid out. Other like the way others are laid out. I can use any just fine.
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Calum

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« Reply #2 on: 14 May 2002, 00:27 »
ther's no prevailing, that's the point. i am very critical of linux development that is not done in true open source attitude, the LSB however seems to be true open source style, ie a distro can be as eclectic and unusual as it likes so long as it conforms to certain expected standards, like how one app might be in a directory other than where you expect it to be, some flags may be different for an app, depending on the version et c. They want to standardise all that so you only need to know one set of commands, and you use less time looking up the man pages, and typing whereis, which and whence and so on every time you use a new machine.

As to linux prevailing, who cares? if it's a better OS, more people will use it, linux isn't the OS anyway, it's the kernel, GNU is largely the OS, sadly that OS seems to need to be partly nonGNU closed source stuff though, due to the proliferation of closed source, non-free technologies, libraries and file types.
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hoojchoons

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« Reply #3 on: 18 May 2002, 03:58 »
I'm sorry Calum but at least to me there was and allways will be the matter of prevailing! You seem to oversimplify things when you claim that "if it's a better OS, more people will use it,..". Unfortunately, the majority of computer users out there is even unaware that GNU/Linux really exists! Not everyone is a techie you know and certainly not everyone is willing to go into all that trouble just to install a new OS on their machine/s no matter how much better it is!! That's what I started this topic for. I simply wanted to state that in order to make GNU/Linux known to the rest of the world, one must standardize some important aspects of the OS, like the file system, the package formats etc. Of course, all of the above apply only if you or anyone else here want to see LINUX PREVAIL and not only flame Windoze users or M$ at the first chance you get.  :D

voidmain

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« Reply #4 on: 18 May 2002, 05:53 »
But what you are missing is the fact that all Linux distros do not have to come together into one (your version of standardizing) to be successful. Let me give you a scenerio (maybe it's far fetched but we'll see, and I'll pick on Mandrake in this example).

Let's say Mandrake refines (depending on your point of view) their OS to the point that it is *exactly* like Windows or Mac OSX in every respect, and they have the easiest method of installing and running applications.  And let's say they start getting much backing and support from investors and can start spending big advertising dollars. And let's say they get Dell and other PC manufacturers to offer Mandrake as an alternative to Windows and market it just as heavily.  And because of this app vendors all port their applications. And let's say this was the break in the dam that people were looking for and overnight Mandrake takes over the majority of desktop PC marketshare from M$.

Mandrake will have gone off and done their own thing. The majority of people that once used Windows now use Mandrake. There is no reason for RedHat, Debian, SuSe to be exactly like Mandrake for this to happen. And most of us who use RedHat, Debian, SuSe, Slackware, etc will continue to use those distros. We don't want our operating system to be like Windows because it is too limiting. The majority of "users" would not feel that way and would be very happy with the new Mandrake.  The different distros can live with each other just fine and not be exactly alike. Just like Linux and Windows can live with each other just fine, as long as Billy boy gets off his anti-GPL kick that is.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

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hoojchoons

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« Reply #5 on: 18 May 2002, 16:04 »
VoidMain, you got me totally wrong. I am not suggesting that all of Linux distros should merge in one. That's not what I mean by standardizing some aspects of the OS. I, myself like the different flavours of Linux distros. Don't get me wrong ;)

Calum

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« Reply #6 on: 18 May 2002, 16:57 »
quote:
Originally posted by hoojchoons:
I'm sorry Calum but at least to me there was and allways will be the matter of prevailing!
that'll be your territorial instincts showing through  
quote:
You seem to oversimplify things when you claim that "if it's a better OS, more people will use it,..". Unfortunately, the majority of computer users out there is even unaware that GNU/Linux really exists! Not everyone is a techie you know and certainly not everyone is willing to go into all that trouble just to install a new OS on their machine/s no matter how much better it is!!
I think you misunderstand what i said, i do not give a rat's chuff about what most people use on their machines, GNU/Linux is not a company and therefore its development is not hindered or helped by how many users are actually using it. Number of developers yes, number of users no.  
quote:
That's what I started this topic for. I simply wanted to state that in order to make GNU/Linux known to the rest of the world, one must standardize some important aspects of the OS, like the file system, the package formats etc.
so you only wanted to state that? not to see anybody actually respond with their own opinions?  
quote:
Of course, all of the above apply only if you or anyone else here want to see LINUX PREVAIL and not only flame Windoze users or M$ at the first chance you get.   :D  

I think it's just as bad to want to see linux dominate the market place as it is to want to see windows dominate it. In some ways it is worse because everybody knew that M$ was selling units all along, Linux would be a traitor if it became an undisputed best seller.
As far as your comments about flaming windows users, once again, how many times? i DO NOT flame windows users, i flame cunts and arseholes, if they are windows users (oh what a coincidence, most of them ARE) then tough shit, that's the way the cookie crumbles. When X11 first came on here
he called me a Microsoft drone, and i flamed him, when macman came on here he posted a lot of posts to that effect too, and i flamed him also. All cleared up now though and i think they are both fine chaps. You keep marching in to war, but i'll be using my brain to make my decisions thanks...  :D
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Master of Reality

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« Reply #7 on: 18 May 2002, 19:03 »
quote:
I think it's just as bad to want to see linux dominate the market place as it is to want to see
              windows dominate it. In some ways it is worse because everybody knew that M$ was selling units
              all along, Linux would be a traitor if it became an undisputed best seller.  

linux wouldnt necessarily be a traitor if it became an undisputed bestseller, unless they started using business crushing tactics like MS, then they would be a traitor. Perhaps people will eralize that Linux is a better OS and start using it (and vendors will have it preinstalled), that wouldnt make them a traitor. If they decided to sue every other company they could get a hold of, and steal information and resources from other companies with good ideas, then they could be called "the ne M
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voidmain

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« Reply #8 on: 18 May 2002, 19:58 »
Let's just hope Linux puts a couple of these companies (M$) out of business, *because* it is free (as in Willy). I don't believe that is a harsh statement considering Billy's tone toward open source and GPL lately. He must be trembling in his boots to make such statements or he would just ignore the whole thing.  After all, *he's* the one with the 99.999999% market share.  And no one is pushing anyone to use something other than Microsoft (big advertising).  They are doing it on their own free will because they are fed up with M$. Kind of hard to fight that.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

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hoojchoons

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« Reply #9 on: 19 May 2002, 04:10 »
Quote
 
[Posted by Calum:
that'll be your territorial instincts showing through]
What the fuck are you talking about???  :eek:    :eek:  
Quote
 
[..,GNU/Linux is not a company..]
Oh, really? Hmmm, that's something new for me to learn. How did I miss such an important detail in my five years of using Linux?  :eek:  
Quote
 
[...and therefore its development is not hindered or helped by how many users are actually using it. Number of developers yes, number of users no.]
Then, who are those developers developing it for? Themselves? Oh boy you're so wrong here! I myself have been taking part as a user and not a developer for the past two years in the Greek translation of KDE (package kde-i18n-el). In most cases my friend, a user is also the developer in GNU/Linux. You don't only have to be a coder or a Network engineer to participate in the development of GNU/Linux!!! That's the beauty of Open source. That's why I do care about how many people use it on their machines ;)
Quote
 
[so you only wanted to state that? not to see anybody actually respond with their own opinions?]
to state = to affirm, to articulate, to assert, to aver, to declare, to EXPLAIN, to expound, to EXPRESS, to PRESENT, to report etc. Why would I start a topic my friend, if I didn't want to here everyone's opinions? as for the verb "to state" you can look it up in a dictionary or thesaurus (another Greek word I love), just to refresh your English!!
Quote
 
[I think it's just as bad to want to see Linux dominate the market place as it is to want to see windows dominate it....]
Again, I never used the word "dominate". I just said something about Linux prevailing as in Linux succeeding, triumphing, winning over MicroSoft's truly evil business practises. Please, think first before misjudging someone. In your own words "..I'll be using my brain to make decisions, thanks...". That's all...

hoojchoons

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« Reply #10 on: 19 May 2002, 05:54 »
Well, since my last post I reconsidered some things about these forums. When I registered, I really expected more from some of you guys here, like at least an open mind or some constructive discussion about the future of other, non M$, operating systems. Apart from some exceptions, like VoidMain and others who really know what they're saying, I was really dissapointed by some of you guys here. So, since this is my last post, thanks for the hospitality...

Special thanks to you VoidMain for your great help, since you were the only one who gave me serious answers.

Calum

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« Reply #11 on: 19 May 2002, 19:16 »
firstly good riddance to you, if that is what you truly think. I take your comments as the thinly disguised insult that they were. I prefer an honest insult. Just because people do not agree with you is no reason to go off and sulk. You seem to have the same idea of what an open mind is as zombie54654674527 does.
 
quote:
Originally posted by hoojchoons:
Quote
 
[Posted by Calum:
that'll be your territorial instincts showing through]
What the fuck are you talking about???
I'm saying that what you said suggests territorialism to me. Also i was being sarcastic/joking. Despite many people's opinions, i have a sense of humour.
 
quote:
 
[..,GNU/Linux is not a company..]
Oh, really? Hmmm, that's something new for me to learn. How did I miss such an important detail in my five years of using Linux?   :eek:  

You must have been living in a hermetically sealed hole for all of those years then. GNU is a registered charity, linux is an open source kernel that people develop in their own time.
quote:
 
[...and therefore its development is not hindered or helped by how many users are actually using it. Number of developers yes, number of users no.]
Then, who are those developers developing it for? Themselves?
Yes, themselves, or "the good of the community"
Many tools have been written and GPLd because somebody automated a function that was too tedious or fiddly to do by hand every time, so they wrote the tool, and reasoned that it would do no harm to distribute it to other people. That is what free software is all about.  
quote:
Oh boy you're so wrong here! I myself have been taking part as a user and not a developer for the past two years in the Greek translation of KDE (package kde-i18n-el). In most cases my friend, a user is also the developer in GNU/Linux. You don't only have to be a coder or a Network engineer to participate in the development of GNU/Linux!!! That's the beauty of Open source. That's why I do care about how many people use it on their machines ;)

That is what i just said. You have just said that the developers develop the software for themselves. The only problem with what you say is that, while we agree, you would rather concoct arbitrary differences in order to give yourself the illusion of standing on the intellectual high ground.  
 
quote:
[so you only wanted to state that? not to see anybody actually respond with their own opinions?]
to state = to affirm, to articulate, to assert, to aver, to declare, to EXPLAIN, to expound, to EXPRESS, to PRESENT, to report etc. Why would I start a topic my friend, if I didn't want to here everyone's opinions? as for the verb "to state" you can look it up in a dictionary or thesaurus (another Greek word I love), just to refresh your English!!

Are you seriously saying i cannot communicate in English? whether i can or not is, incidentally irrelevant. People who do not have good english are in no way less intelligent than english speakers, as i am sure you know. Surely you know that to state something is to tell other people it. If you want discussion, you discuss, or debate, or argue, or compare, or rationalise, or question, just to refresh your english.  
 
quote:
[I think it's just as bad to want to see Linux dominate the market place as it is to want to see windows dominate it....]
Again, I never used the word "dominate". I just said something about Linux prevailing as in Linux succeeding, triumphing, winning over MicroSoft's truly evil business practises. Please, think first before misjudging someone. In your own words "..I'll be using my brain to make decisions, thanks...". That's all...
I didn't judge you in the least. I did not say "dominate" as if it was a quote. Yet again, dominate and prevail are very similar in concept and usage. I was in fact questioning what you had to say, not insulting you in particular. The very fact that you not only choose to take umbrage and leave the forums, but also choose to publicly deride the people here shows me just how much you need to work on your attitude towards criticism.

I hope to see you posting here again when you have got over it as i personally think you seem very intelligent and have a lot to say. However i will not be agreeing with you as a matter of course. Also, if and when i do not agree with someone, it is not because i am closed minded. Surprisingly to many people, it is because i do not think that what they seem to be saying sounds right when their statement is taken to mean what i think it means.
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hoojchoons

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« Reply #12 on: 19 May 2002, 21:26 »
I feel the need to apologise to you Calum. You were a lot more clear in your last post and I think I was really harsh on you previously. I'm the one who misjudged you. Looks like I'm posting here again! How can I live without you guys? As I mentioned in another thread, I've been watching these forums anonymously since November last year but didn't want to register. So, it's become like a habit of mine to come here and check on the forums. Again man, my apologies to you if my posts were insulting and as I said before we seem to be saying the same thing! We basically agree and then we argue about what we agree upon  :eek:  .Isn't that strange?!

hoojchoons

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« Reply #13 on: 20 May 2002, 01:34 »
Just to try and correct some things more. My apologies go to all of you guys here at the forums if I insulted anyone and first of all Calum, as I already mentioned previously, to whom I answered very sarcastically. It's just that sometimes one doesn't seem to read behind the words. That's what happened to me as well. So Calum, since you're one of the moderators feel free to close this topic at my own request since I'm really ashamed of most of the things I wrote. Thanks again and sorry for what I said   :(

Calum

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« Reply #14 on: 20 May 2002, 18:45 »
oh pish and tosh, life is too short for heartfelt disagreements and there's really no need for an apology. Welcome back on board anyway!  :D
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