I'm sick and tired of these "linux is ugly" comments

[hm_murdock]

I've always thought, and knew ever since I used NeXTStep on an old next box and then OS X, that Linux needed to jettison some of the UNIXish underpinnings. use the Linux kernel, but build a complete OS over it, instead of just pulling from GNU UNIX code. Develop a set of high level APIs, a Quartz-like PDF based graphics framework, and some kind of package system.

Hell, you could keep the UNIX layer so you could run older Linux apps... so essentially you're creating... Mac OS X.

Yeah... I'd love to see an open source Mac OS X copy, and it could be done with Linux as the kernel. Just develop a good graphics framework (for God's sake, don't use X11, LET IT DIE!), and some very good APIs (maybe use Apple's Yellow Box as published with Rhapsody, and of course... USE PACKAGES.

Packages has to be one of the best ideas I've seen in a decade. Everything that the app needs is stored in its own folder tree... but the user only sees a single icon. No shitty dependencies to worry about, no compiling, no spewing of files all over the filesystem. No registry, and no DLLs. This is how you beat MS, you do something BETTER. The reason OS X is so much more attractive than Linux is because it feels much more polished. Linux feels like UNIX with a GUI on top. I don't EVER use the terminal in OS X. Last time I used it was when I sent something via FTP.

The endless customization offered by X11 can actually be a roadblock, because there IS NO INTERFACE STANDARD. the "OSS X" (seems appropriate) would need a rather strict set of UI guidelines.

Appearance? Why not base the appearance on Bluecurve? Use Gnome or KDE as the basis for the UI framework (my vote is for Gnome, even though I like KDE more... Gnome is... just more open, and a little more original). Let it be skinnable, but all it changes is appearance, not UI behavior. I know all you guys hate the idea of someone taking away your endless customization, but it's too much for average users. You could still tweak it in the same ways you've been doing for years, though. It just wouldn't be *quite as easy*.

But, I think some of the biggest strengths that most Linux users dwell on are also some of its biggest weaknesses on the desktop. Lack of a good graphics framework is one problem, lack of a good UI framework, and a good high-level API. It needs those things. Nothing more to say.

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy James: Mac Commando ]

[slave]

Do not bash X11.  It is more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[billy_gates]

quote:Originally posted by Linux User #5225982375:
Do not bash X11.  It is more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Three words:
Laugh Out Loud
or...
Seven Words
Rolling on the Floor Laughing Out Loud

You Choose

[Calum]

oh yeah? where can i download something better that will run all my X programs in mandrake 9?

until then i will continue to opine that X11 is very good.

[preacher]

quote:Originally posted by Billy Gates: Mac Comrade Captain:


Three words:
Laugh Out Loud
or...
Seven Words
Rolling on the Floor Laughing Out Loud

You Choose

Are you trying to start a mac vs. linux war? Ive got three words for you too in concern to linux.

Free
Secure
Stable

Beat that!!!!

[slave]

I set up vnc on X yesterday and it's pretty cool.  I can log into my b0x from any location.  xfree86 4.3 will also come with several new features like the resize and render extension.

[Pantso]

Preacher, noone is starting a mac vs linux war. That would be way too childish and really pointless. We all know that OS X is not free of course but it is equally stable and secure as Linux is. Yes, I like OS X, yes I like it more than Linux in many areas, but that's just me. I could as easily as you put a little statement of mine on my sig like "OS X is the best UNIX based OS and not Linux", but that would be stupid on my part since I've used and I'm using both OSes. On the contrary, I don't think you've ever used OS X, or you haven't mentioned it so far, hence you can't be jumping into conclusions which are based in pure assumptions!

As for X11, it is REALLY powerful like Linux user pointed out but needs a lot of improvement and more intense work on behalf of those who are into the project. Again, my opinion. So far unfortunately, you can only get commercial X servers as an alternative to X11.

[DC]

About X11 (the program): it does have some rather nasty qualities, but it allows for beautifull stuff. I can (and have) run programs from the school servers on my home PC through ssh and X tunneling. Graphical programs, that is. I'd like to see one of my not-yet-converted classmates do that (don't worry, they'll be converted - the amount of frequent Windows users under the senior students is rather small).

Besides, X - or rather, a window manager on top of X - can be made as beautifull (or ugly) as you want to. Pretty easy too, if you don't want all to odd stuff. I use Mosfet's Liquid (mentioned above) and it's the most beautiful GUI I have ever seen.

However, there is one thing wrong. As others stated (in other words), themes are usually applied to a single widget styles, and the windows itself. So KDE apps, who use QT, blend perfectly with Liquid. Mozilla, using the GTK widget, has the same title bar, but plain, square, grey buttons. I do not mind that much, but I understand that some may see this as ugly. Also, there is as far as I know no easy way to solve this (it is probably possible, but it'll be development hell, with all different licenses and stuff thrown in for good measure).
Developing a whole new windowing system *may* look like a good idea, but it'll break compatibility. What if not everyone accepts the new standard? What do we do with the ability to run graphical apps on different screens - useless for mose home users, but incredibly usefull for others. How will people connect with X11 boxes (remember, having backwards compatibility is impossible, since it will break the whole "new system" thing and will be cruftingly slow)? That is one of the strengths of X and Unix.

X has a lot of problems, but all things considered it is a good system.

[slave]

Yeah, X11 has had "remote desktop" long before XPee Professional.

[billy_gates]

quote:Originally posted by ThePreacher:


Are you trying to start a mac vs. linux war? Ive got three words for you too in concern to linux.

Free
Secure
Stable

Beat that!!!!

I really don't want to start a stupid Mac vs Linux war.  However...

Secure
Stable
Easy


I didn't add pretty because I think you previsouly mentioned that you didn't like Aqua.


I think this topic should end here.  We are not going anywhere but down with this post.

[ February 11, 2003: Message edited by: Billy Gates: Mac Comrade Captain ]

[isolationist]

Mac Comrade: Couldn't agree more, free, secure, stable. That's why I'm using Linux (I am actually re-installing it now because the hard-drive got dropped a few times, its a 170Mb HDD on a 486, in case that scares you, I'm using Slackware).

In my opinion, whoever says they think Linux sucks and that Windows is better should be eradicated from this site and be left to enjoy the eye-candy. Obviously this person can't think properly or has never used DOS because he can't find the mouse cursor. At least with DOS you get fast access to your files, graphics card and everything else because you don't have 500Mb of DLL files blocking up your memory.

On Windows 1.01, I have used it on an IBM XT (4.77 Mhz 8088 CPU, 20Mb HDD, CGA 640x200 2 colours) and I am amazed that Windows ever took off at all!!!

[hm_murdock]

X11 needs to shed the bitmapped engine for a vector-based engine. end of story. bitmapped graphics frameworks need to find their way out. they're hopelessly outmoded.

X11 has the most advanced features of any framework, but it has one of the poorest (albiet flexible) renderers.

[preacher]

Im sorry if my sig offends, Im just promoting my website. My response above was to the person who thought all linux looked like shit. Sometimes the elitist attitudes that some mac users have is too much. Its almost like slackware users on drugs.

[Pantso]

quote:Originally posted by ThePreacher:
Im sorry if my sig offends, Im just promoting my website. My response above was to the person who thought all linux looked like shit. Sometimes the elitist attitudes that some mac users have is too much. Its almost like slackware users on drugs.

Don't get me wrong. I hate elitist and discriminating attitude myself, whether that comes from Mac or Linux users. BTW, I like your "slackware users on drugs" remark.  

[Calum]

i agree with preacher and panos.

not that any of you care, since those of us whom i agree with are all elitist fascists who don't listen to anybody's opinion but our own. </sarcasm>