Is the Update service worth the 60 Dollars?

[Bazoukas]

I went to update and it said that I need to buy an entitlement. In my case it would be 60 dollars a year.

  Is it worth it?

[Stryker]

I didn't have a problem, back when I didn't have an entitlement it just said wait until it wasn't so busy, so I did. But when I bought 7.1 it came with the entitlement. And no it isn't worth it, just check the updates you need and ftp to a mirror at http://redhat.com/mirrors.html (I think that's the right link).

[www.unixsucks.com]

I don't want to look like a fool but do I understand correctly that I need to pay money to get updates for RedHat?

[Bazoukas]

They dont force you to pay or do it. You can Dowload all the updates for free.

 Which inlcude updates from the kernel to ALL other software. From Apache, SQL, Instant messangers,KDE, GNOME, you name it. We are talking about 1gig+ of upadates and it includes all software that comes with RedHat.And with no reboot.

  You can select what packages you want to update. I did the full monty and it was about 800MB (i think. Am not sure).
I did it once with 7.3 via Gnome but it didnt ask me for entiltment.

 This is just a feature that makes it extremly easy for the users. You can go the other way though, check the updtates page and download them your self.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]

[www.unixsucks.com]

Ok, so say you have current OS for 3 years without major OS upgrades, just updates. It'll cost you 180$ which would cost 0$ with Windows XP, but you pay $199 for Windows XP upgrade, plus you get support from Microsoft and as far as I understand nothing for RedHat without additional fee.
Bearing in mind that people here target Linux not only to servers but to the desktops as well where a lot of users don't really know what FTP means I don't really see how TCO for Linux can be lower first and second why Linux would be prefered solution. Explain me what am I missing here.

[Bazoukas]

As i said man this feature is OPTIONAL!

 A user or network Admin can do the Updates by himself if he wants to and still be up to date.

  If you choose not to pay the entiltment they dont cut you short from packages. They still give them. My guess is that they charge the entiltment fee because the traffic on their servers are heavy, since the updates for each PC may be 1gig+.
  And again. Its a feature that is very automated. You just click, and all updates are downloades to your PC and you dont have to reboot.

  Coming to your example now.
  I dont think MS offers free upgrades to their kernel like RH in particular does. I assume you understand what a kernel update means.  

  i dont think MS offers free improved versions of ISS like RH in particular does with Apache and Samba.

 So if you do the math. It all adds up and basicaly by using RH or any other Linux flavor, cost of ownership drops big time compared to MS.


  You Linux veterans correct me if am wrong with all this.

[voidmain]

You are missing everything. You do *not* have to pay for RedHat or any updates. Go to their web site and download all you want. I've been running RedHat since version 1.0 and never ever had to pay for updates. I did purchase a boxed set of RedHat 6.1 when it came out because it was more convenient than downloading at the time.

If you want to get phone support from RedHat or use RedHat's automated update (RedHat Network) then they will charge you, but if you are like me and do not need telephone support and do not want your system "automatically" updated it won't cost you a penny.

Now there are other methods to automatically update your system but there is absolutely no way I would allow automatic updates in a production environment without first fully testing the update myself then rolling out the update using my own methods.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Bazoukas]

My guess VoidMan is that

a) he cant read English very well.

b) he just asks question up on question, when he already has recieved his answer, just to troll around.

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by bazoukas:
My guess VoidMan is that

a) he cant read English very well.

b) he just asks question up on question, when he already has recieved his answer, just to troll around.

I know, but he triggers an involuntary twitch in my typing fingers (which are limited to one hand at the moment).

[www.unixsucks.com]

You are all so lame that even can not live with the facts when there is something which does not fall into places of "free everything".
I specifically told you about desktop people, John Does which does not have knowledge of any service pack installations.
Ok, let me do it second time so you would get it.
I specifically told you about desktop people, John Does which does not have knowledge of any service pack installations.
Do I need to do it third time?

And please bazoukas if you don't know what you are talking about then just shut up. Windows does not provide kernel updates? You also asking me wether I know what is kernel. Yes, Microsoft does provide kernel updates. Surprised? Live and learn.

Now back to my question, how exactl John Doe who does not know what FTP is and how to install service packs would do it without paying additional money to RedHat or VoidMan?
And on another note, why update is so HUGE?
Can I just install hotfixes? I guess I can but they would be scattered through 40 different websites, one for ssh, another one for bind, another one for Apache, another one for PHP. How convinient is Microsoft, everything in one place and automatcially detected as well.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: http://www.unixsucks.com ]

[voidmain]

What does John Doe do in Windows?  I know *very few* John Does that use Windows update for many reasons. If you don't have a high speed connection you can forget about it. The rest don't do Windows update because they don't trust Microsoft.

Now, how many John Does were able to figure it out before Windows Update which is fairly recent? Seems to me M$ was able to become a monopoly without it. And how hard is it to click www.redhat.com and then click Support?  They don't have to know anything about FTP. And if they want something even easier they can use Ximian Red Carpet to keep their system updated. M$ could learn some things from that app. John Doe isn't as dumb as you would like him to be. And if he is, that's why he has children, they can certainly accomplish the task.

[www.unixsucks.com]

I guess I have been talking to dumber people then I expected becouse I did not expect them to know whom they logged in as (you need to be root to install updates, rigght?), they don't know hot to install patches if they would not be installed by just clicking on executable and they certainly would get lost on support page for RedHat as I have not found there anything except for information how to update kernel. But! I found on the very beginning of the page invitation to use pay telephone support.
So now, being reasonable man (as you claimed to be) do you REALLY THINK THAT AVERAGE JOHN DOE can figure what updates his system needs bearing in mind
1) He has little understand what is actually installed on his system (he might run Apache and would not even know about it)
2) Go through 20 different sites to get updates for pieces of applications which he actually know which are installed?
3) Does not know how to change context to root or does forgot password


On separate note, can you tell me what would be exactly installed on average Red Hat installation if user would just say Ok to everything which he would be asked for? I mean daemons.

[voidmain]

Of course they need to be root to make changes to the system. That's called "security".  Now, when you click on an RPM to install it will prompt you for root's password.  If you know the password you can update the system. If you don't you shouldn't be messing with it. So you are telling me that Windows will allow you to install updates without system privelages? Oh that's secure. And the average John Doe probably wouldn't update his system using this method. He would just insert the CD for the new release of the OS, and click the "upgrade" button.  In Microsoft these upgrades are equivelant to the difference between Windows 2K and Windows XP, except you don't have to pay for them and they come out more often.

As far as a full install the easiest way to see what software there is, is to install and see for yourself. It doesn't cost anything. But if you need a specific list:
http://www.redhat.com/software/linux/pl_rhl.html

And a review:
http://www.linuxlookup.com/html/reviews/software/redhat7.3.html

[Bazoukas]

quote:Originally posted by www.unixsucks.com:
You are all so lame that even can not live with the facts when there is something which does not fall into places of "free everything".
I specifically told you acbout desktop people, John Does which does not have knowledge of any service pack installations.
Ok, let me do it second time so you would get it.
I specifically told you about desktop people, John Does which does not have knowledge of any service pack installations.
Do I need to do it third time?

And please bazoukas if you don't know what you are talking about then just shut up. Windows does not provide kernel updates? You also asking me wether I know what is kernel. Yes, Microsoft does provide kernel updates. Surprised? Live and learn.

Now back to my question, how exactl John Doe who does not know what FTP is and how to install service packs would do it without paying additional money to RedHat or VoidMan?
And on another note, why update is so HUGE?
Can I just install hotfixes? I guess I can but they would be scattered through 40 different websites, one for ssh, another one for bind, another one for Apache, another one for PHP. How convinient is Microsoft, everything in one place and automatcially detected as well.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: www.unixsucks.com ]

 Are you mentaly challanged???

 You pick what package you need to update. it doesnt have to be HUGE. It can be huge cause you can update (FOR A SECOND TIME FOR YOU) ALL THE SOFTWARE you have.  Lets say the autoupdater sees you have gaim and sees that there is a new version of gaim available it will ask you if you want to update it. This goes for everything. From gcc, gimp, Xmm (the Winamp of linux), Apache you name it.  It first sees what software you already have and then it asks you which ones you want to be updated. The size can be from few MBs to 1gig+.

YOU CHOOSE!!!!!

   AM I GETTING THROUGH TO YOU NOW MORON?

 Allright.

 About the joe smo now. You want extreme simplicity? How is this one for you.

 Gentoo linux. You can download the barebones verions of it which is 16 MBs and then build it to your liking or you can download the 110+ MB that comes with apps so you can be ready to work.

 Now lets say you want to update OR install the new version of KDE for example. You open up a shell and type # -emerge KDE (i cant remember the exact syntax, but its something along these lines).

  Gentoo goes on the web finds the latest OFFICIAL packages of KDE, downloads them, and installs them and you are ready to go.
 Simple enough for you?

 Oh and about the windows kernels. Realy who gives a fuck. The damn thing crashes anyways. I was a Windows ONLY user before i changed to CS major. My tool was Win2k and even though i strongly believe win2k is the best Windows version to date, it still crashes.  

  The only thing that has crashed on my Linux are few apps that i have. Yooopse do!  The kernel as of yet hasnt gone to shitland.


  By the way didnt you say in another thread that you wont post anyomore here? Move along. The WWW is very big. No need for you to be fixated with this web site.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]

[creedon]

quote:Originally posted by www.unixsucks.com:
Ok, so say you have current OS for 3 years without major OS upgrades, just updates. It'll cost you 180$ which would cost 0$ with Windows XP, but you pay $199 for Windows XP upgrade, plus you get support from Microsoft and as far as I understand nothing for RedHat without additional fee.
Bearing in mind that people here target Linux not only to servers but to the desktops as well where a lot of users don't really know what FTP means I don't really see how TCO for Linux can be lower first and second why Linux would be prefered solution. Explain me what am I missing here.

Debian method: As root, establish an internet connection, open a shell, enter the following (without quotes) "apt-get update"; Debian will evaluate all the applications installed on your system, and advise dpkg as to available updates; after this is done (no more than 5 minutes @56k), enter (without quotes) 'apt-get dist-upgrade"  ALL the applications on your system will be upgraded to the latest available release, installed with dependancies checked; the elapsed time will depend on the size of the upgrades available.  This is done at NO COST WHATSOEVER to the user.  NOTE: this is a VERY simplified explanation of "apt/dpkg"; it's MUCH more powerful than just updating/upgrading!!
Let's see MS do that!!  (I'm 55, I'll never live that long!)