Author Topic: What needs to be done about Linux  (Read 1744 times)

slave

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What needs to be done about Linux
« on: 19 November 2003, 21:19 »
I'll be the first to admit how much I love and use Linux.  It's what got me really interested in computers in the first place.  The problem is that it's not satisfying to me for only nerds or tech-oriented people to use it.  I want everyone to be able to easily use Linux, no matter what their level of technical expertise is.  Actually, Linux is very easy - if you are used to its non-intuitive and often archaic configuration systems.  Almost any "Linux geek" learned Linux by adapting his mindset to Linux - by thinking like the operating system.  I want Linux to be better than that.  Computers should adapt to the users - not vice-versa.  I want Linux to be for everyone, and I want it to have an interface that anyone can grasp.  It should be as easy to use as a Mac.  This does not mean I want Linux to become an OS that technical people can't use and love.  That is the last thing I want to do.  Rather, I would like to see the Linux desktop be easy, intuitive, and simple, while allowing the more technically inclined of us to easily delve into the things we know and love about linux like the shell, configuring via text files, compiling programs, tweaking, installing 6 different browsers, etc.  And as I technical user, I appreciate the artistic and intuitive nuances that went into creating OS X.  I think it is a myth that all technical users are uninterested in having an intuitive graphical interface.  They simply have learned to live without it - the negative side to this is they often expect everyone else to live without it too.  

I believe Linux can be made to be the operating system of choice for nontechnical users, but things need to be done in order for that to happen.  So I'm going to do something bold and list all the major blockers Linux has that keep it from being used everyday by the bulk of computer users, and I will try to suggest solutions to these problems that are realistic.


Problem #1 - The explosive pace of Linux development makes it difficult for end-users to stay put.

Linux distributions release too often.  2-3 times a year? Give me a break.  Most people, unless they are like me and have some sort of obsessive disorder, don't enjoy installing operating systems.  We need a Linux distribution that focuses on getting it right instead of simply spontaneously releasing another OS update just because it's been 5 months since the last update.  The Debian release model should set a good example.  Debian only releases, to quote, "when it's done", which is usually around every two years.  This is why Debian has traditionally been one of the most solid operating systems to use in a production environment.  If there was a desktop Linux distribution that followed this model, it would allow for more stability and would also allow companies producing software that runs on Linux to more easily assure users that the software will be compatible.  It's much easier to handle library dependencies and customer support when your OS releases every 2 years instead of two times a year.

Also, when  the OS did release updates, they would be all that more dramatic.  ;)

Problem #2 - No easy way to install programs, especially 3rd party programs.

Well, this is a fairly small problem actually, because we have apt-get, which makes managing programs on Linux rather painless, but it has a problem.  There are no simplified front-ends to apt-get. Synaptic doesn't count; it's still too complicated for the average man.

What we need is a nice frontend to apt-get and dpkg (I am assuming here that this distribution will be based on Debian)  that behaves like installers on Mac or Windows.  The question is which one?  In Windows you usually are presented with a "Wizard" which guides you through installation of the program using a dialoge-based walkthrough, typically asking you a bunch of questions users shouldn't need to answer, like where do you want it installed and if you want to view the Readme file (like anyone clicks that)  I suggest a front-end where users can simply drag a program icon to a "programs" folder and have it install the program automatically, and download the dependencies if needed - although if the package was designed for this distribution then that shouldn't be necessary.  This "meta-folder", so to speak, would only contain applications, not libraries and trivial utilities that you see all over the Synaptic menu.

Problem #3 - hardware detection and other issues.

Theoretically, hardware detection on Linux is actually quite good.  The little hardware that isn't supported is almost always due to hardware companies being difficult and refusing to release the specs of their chipsets.  This, I am confident, will change in the future as Linux becomes more and more important.

I said "theoretically" because most distributions do a half-assed implementation of hardware detection and management. Even the mainstream distros like Fedora don't seem to do it right.  For instance the Red hat hardware detector, kudzu, lets you know only on system startup if there is a device added, and comes up with an ugly menu to tell you this, which you have to press a button or it will do nothing.  Nobody should have to press a button.  That's not what "Plug and Play" is all about.  It should be like plugging a Gamecube controller in.   This is certainly possible on Linux, and it could be implemented in a superior way than Windows currently does it.  In Windows, when you plug in a new device, a crummy bubble notification comes on and alerts you of this.  This is intrusive and unnecessary.  The ideal thing would be for it to only come up with a window or notification if it saw you plugged in something but it couldn't find the correct drivers for it.  This may be the case in the future when more proprietary drivers are made for Linux than are today.  Since I want this distribution to be entirely composed of free software, it would be unacceptable to include these drivers.  But there could be an apt repository included that would let you install a proprietary driver if you so wanted to.

Problem #4 - X window system

I will not say much about X here, but I would like it to get the same abilities that quartz has.  This is really just an issue of time, so there isn't much to be said, really.

Problem #5 - General user interface

KDE and GNOME provide a decent user interface, but they could be better.  I know the goal of the projects is to be portable, so having Linux-specific configuration tools isn't something being worked on currently.  I think there should be a project to create easy to use administration tools for KDE and/or GNOME that allow the user to configure their Linux system using only the GUI.

Another issue with the desktop is, well, polish.  KDE and GNOME are great, but both (especially KDE) could use an interface polish.  (GNOME could use a speed boost and some bug fixes in Nautilus, but that's a different story.)  It's really not that hard - just eliminate redundency in menus, lay out things in a more simplified and easy to grasp way - in short, don't suffer from feature creep.  And for heaven's sake, include a sane and attractive desktop configuration out of the box.  The fact is that 90% of computer users don't change their PC's settings - ever.

Problem #6 - Multimedia and the DMCA

This is a tough but real issue.  How will Linux users be able to legally enjoy multimedia like Quicktime, WMV, MP3's, DVD's and so on, when practically all of these things are rife with ominous "Intellectual Property" concerns?  There is currently no legal way to watch DVD's in Linux using Free Software, and if current US laws don't change it may remain that way indefinitely.  This issue is really more of a legal problem than a techinal one.  We need to change laws in order for Linux to be usable for the average person in this respect.

Well, that perhaps covers it.  I have been typing for a straight hour now, so I think I'll give it a rest, maybe add some more stuff later.

So what do you all think?

Stryker

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #1 on: 19 November 2003, 21:52 »
intresting, i wanna read more...

although i've never had a problem viewing dvds unless they were encrypted... and even then ogle took care of it. It is illegal to decrypt them? perhaps what should be done is someone needs to make a good, proprietary, dvd viewer for linux. From what I (think I) know, getting the decryption information legally isn't possible for open source programs because then everyone can see them and it defeats the point of encrypting it. So make a proprietary one. It works for other operating systems why not linux? but maybe i'm not seeing the problem as it really is. I dont think i'm up to speed with all this dvd stuff.

i like ur ideas though, intrested in hearing more.

Laukev7

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #2 on: 19 November 2003, 10:48 »
I say that the desktop is best left to Mac OS X. FreeBSD and Linux should stay on servers. And maybe Windows for Solitaire and blue screens.

Zombie9920

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #3 on: 19 November 2003, 11:04 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:
I say that the desktop is best left to Mac OS X. FreeBSD and Linux should stay on servers. And maybe Windows for Solitaire and blue screens.



The sad thing is Linux has a larger user base than Mac OS. Macs haven't been able to overthrow x86 in over 17 years(not by a long shot) and I doubt they ever will. Mac OS hasn't been able to overthrow Windows since Windows 2.0 and I doubt it ever will. Microsoft has a good thing going on and I forsee them ruling the desktop world for years to come.

Linux hasn't been able to overthrow Windows since it was spawned(for a long time) and I doubt it ever will. I bet the end of Microsoft will come from an unknown OS from an unexpected company some time from now. The OS that will get the job done will not use the Linux kernel or Unix kernel. It will not be open source, it will not have anything to do with GNU and it will not be under GPL. It will not be rehash from any other OS and of course it will be easy to use. Even though the OS will overthrow MS's dominance it will not knock MS out of the game. MS will just become #2.

Of course I don't know this for a fact but that is how I forsee it happening.

[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]


hm_murdock

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #4 on: 19 November 2003, 14:07 »
I think Mickey Mouse is going to come out with a good OS soon. It's gonna be called Epcot '04 or something like that. Yeah. That's the ticket.

No, really. All those are valid points... and again, I must point to NeXTStep... it solved all these problems years ago...

Because the solution exists, the problem presents itself. Why doesn't the Linux community try to spur the development of a good X11 alternative? Linux User posted a link to something that looks damn good in another thread. Fresco is very promising. Also, what would have been wrong with someone developing Display Ghostscript?

http://www.gyve.org/dgs/

It apparently exists, but like so many GREAT PROJECTS it dies, and in its stead, mediocrity continues.

As for software installs? Again, need to bow down to NeXTStep...

NeXTStep has two ways... one way is an actual OS mechanism. You have .pkg files which contain an install script, and the files to be installed in a compressed format. What is the .pkg file? Not a file, actually. .pkg bundles, are bundles like any other bundle in NeXTStep... they're actually FOLDERS! Nothing fancy, it's just that the file browser (Workplace Manager in NeXTStep, OpenStep, and Rhapsody, or Finder in Mac OS X) sees them as a single object (remember, object-oriented design!).



You double-click the .pkg and the Installer opens...



It handles everything. There are no dependency issues... EVER. Apps use documented APIs that are provided by the OS. This guarantees that the app will always run, every time, on every machine that runs the OS. NeXTStep doesn't use the low-level UNIX methods for running and installing apps.

Apps are also stored in .app bundles, which, like .pkg bundles contain everything needed. The binary, all of its resources (images, icon, strings, et cetera) are inside there, and like .pkg bundles, it is treated as a single object by the file browser. You see an icon labled "Mail" but it's really a 5MB folder tree.

And that leads to the other way to install apps in NeXTStep... drag-and-drop. If the app contains everything it needs in one icon... you can just move and copy it around. No problemo!

How does it do it? NeXTStep is really, really layered. There's the low-level stuff, and then atop all that rides the high-level Objective-C stuff. All the high-level components interact with the kernel directly, and not as applications. YellowBox and Cocoa would be hard to run on Linux without an AWFUL LOT of work being done. See GNUStep... they're building NeXTStep-compliant components to create a NeXT-layer for other OSes.

They've done an admirable job, btw.
Go the fuck ~

flap

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #5 on: 19 November 2003, 17:41 »
quote:
It is illegal to decrypt them?


It is in the US.

 
quote:
I say that the desktop is best left to Mac OS X.


As far as you're concerned, maybe. Millions of people use Unix variants as desktops and have no problem with them.

[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: flap ]

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slave

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #6 on: 19 November 2003, 18:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:
I say that the desktop is best left to Mac OS X. FreeBSD and Linux should stay on servers. And maybe Windows for Solitaire and blue screens.


You're forgetting why Linus developed the Linux kernel in the first place.  He wanted to run UNIX on his home PC.  The fact is, the things linux has going for it in the server world - stability, reliability, responsiveness, security - all make it a good candidate for a desktop OS.

Until OS X can run on more architectures than PPC, or until PPC becomes the dominant architecture, I doubt Apple will ever have a market share above 5%.

Linux on the other hand is being adopted everywhere - 1 million computers in China, the govt. of Brazil, Munich, and many other places I can't remember.  Linux will win for the same reason Windows beat out OS/2 back in the day - not because it's better than the competition, but because it's cheap and "good enough" to be used.

slave

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #7 on: 19 November 2003, 18:47 »
quote:
Originally posted by Viper:

Linux hasn't been able to overthrow Windows since it was spawned(for a long time) and I doubt it ever will. I bet the end of Microsoft will come from an unknown OS from an unexpected company some time from now. The OS that will get the job done will not use the Linux kernel or Unix kernel. It will not be open source, it will not have anything to do with GNU and it will not be under GPL. It will not be rehash from any other OS and of course it will be easy to use. Even though the OS will overthrow MS's dominance it will not knock MS out of the game. MS will just become #2.

Of course I don't know this for a fact but that is how I forsee it happening.

[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]



Certainly a possibility, but I sincerely doubt the OS that defeats Windows won't be under the GPL.  Why is that?  Because open source, copylefted software is the only kind that is immune to Microsoft's monopolist tactics.  Just look what happened to BeOS.  Even if your OS was technically better, Microsoft is so entrenched and has so much money that you would quickly go bankrupt trying to compete with them.  One business can't do this job - you need a social movement.  And you need a license that will prevent them from taking your OS when it starts to become a serious competitor, improving it, and releasing it as their own as proprietary software.  That's what infuriates Microsoft.  They hate the GPL, and would destroy linux easily if it didn't exist.  They *can't* use the source code in their non-free OS and there isn't a thing they can do about it (except pay SCO to try to invalidate the GPL)

insomnia

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #8 on: 19 November 2003, 19:41 »
I never had any of those problems.

Still, I do agree their should be a easier distro, but not at all costs. In the past, people already tried to do this. Powerless systems like BeOS and NeXTStep were the result.


   
quote:
quote: It is illegal to decrypt them?

It is in the US.


...educational use...  ;)
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hm_murdock

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #9 on: 20 November 2003, 04:14 »
uh... BeOS isn't a UNIX-derived system
Go the fuck ~

insomnia

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #10 on: 20 November 2003, 17:56 »
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy james:
uh... BeOS isn't a UNIX-derived system


Yes it is!
All lower levels are unix based.
They just made a mess of it.

[ November 20, 2003: Message edited by: insomnia ]

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
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Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
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preacher

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #11 on: 20 November 2003, 18:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by Linux User #5225982375:


Certainly a possibility, but I sincerely doubt the OS that defeats Windows won't be under the GPL.  Why is that?  Because open source, copylefted software is the only kind that is immune to Microsoft's monopolist tactics.  Just look what happened to BeOS.  Even if your OS was technically better, Microsoft is so entrenched and has so much money that you would quickly go bankrupt trying to compete with them.  One business can't do this job - you need a social movement.  And you need a license that will prevent them from taking your OS when it starts to become a serious competitor, improving it, and releasing it as their own as proprietary software.  That's what infuriates Microsoft.  They hate the GPL, and would destroy linux easily if it didn't exist.  They *can't* use the source code in their non-free OS and there isn't a thing they can do about it (except pay SCO to try to invalidate the GPL)



Linux User, I like you. You dont talk about linux like it is trash like so many others here.

1. A uniform, easy to use, package management system. Part of the problem with file dependencies has nothing to do with bad package management. The truth is that since almost all software on linux is free, the authors and packagers are often different people. This means problems with dependencies are likely to occur. If no one has noticed, there are almost no dependency problems on commercial linux software. Since I own quite a bit of commercial linux software, I can tell you, it works great, and features cool things like graphical installers. You cant tell me no one has had dependency problems in Windows. I remember back in the day trying to install a game in windows and it not working because I had the wrong version of directX.

2. DVD. This is essential. Linux prides itself on being a viable alternative, however, if it cant "legally" do this, it will never be able to compete. For this certain feature we need a big name linux company such as SuSE. This company buys all the DVD license crap, and builds a closed source proprietary DVD/Media player that is bundled with their United States version of the OS. Of course it would be full featured. They then pack it with their higher cost SuSE software bundle. This will help get linux dvd started.

[ November 20, 2003: Message edited by: ThePreacher ]

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flap

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #12 on: 20 November 2003, 21:05 »
quote:
This company buys all the DVD license crap, and builds a closed source proprietary DVD/Media player that is bundled with their United States version of the OS. Of course it would be full featured. They then pack it with their higher cost SuSE software bundle. This will help get linux dvd started.


That's about the worst thing that could happen. More non-free software on GNU/Linux, and its users have to start bowing down before the DMCA. People should continue to resist it by using DeCSS, whether it's legal or not.
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preacher

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #13 on: 21 November 2003, 03:46 »
quote:
Originally posted by flap:


That's about the worst thing that could happen. More non-free software on GNU/Linux, and its users have to start bowing down before the DMCA. People should continue to resist it by using DeCSS, whether it's legal or not.



First thing you need to know is that in order to make it so an OS can play DVD's legally, they must buy a license. This is not a cheap license, and the cost is absorbed by the end user of the product. You wonder why windows XP and Mac OS X cost money, this is part of the reason. Its funny how Windows and Mac users never complain about having to purchase software, but some linux users are so fucking lazy and cheap, that they dont want to spend a dime for things they want. You wonder why no one takes linux seriously. Im not for breaking the law, and neither are the linux companies or they would just include DeCSS on the install disc. My idea is not impractical, in fact it is logical. You say we shouldnt bow down to the DMCA, but if we dont linux will never be able to compete. We need a legal implementation of a linux dvd player.
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flap

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What needs to be done about Linux
« Reply #14 on: 21 November 2003, 03:54 »
I'm not talking about not being willing to 'pay' for software. If you don't understand what Free Software is or why it's important that Free software remains Free (as in freedom) I suggest you read the link in my sig. If GNU/Linux can never compete as a result of this (actually I don't think the DVD issue is in the least bit important to the system's adoption) then so be it. To compromise the integrity of the system by tainting it with proprietary software is not a desirable option. We can already watch DVD's on our Free operating system, end of story. Nothing needs to change there, except the law.
"While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is none other than the United States of America." - Ernesto Che Guevara

http://counterpunch.org
http://globalresearch.ca