New Computer Help

[jtpenrod]

A couple of days ago, I was at Circuit City and found a new system they had on sale. It looked pretty good, so I did some checking and it got excellent reviews (Consumer Reports) and the price is rather good. The problem is that it comes with Win XP, Home Edition. I don't want Win XP, I never intend to use it, and, should I buy this system, the first thing I will do is get rid of XP and replace it with the OS of my choice. Here's the problem. Do I still have to pay for the pre-installed Win XP? Circuit City was no help here as they tell me that they get the computers with XP already on them. Since this is basically a discount store, the sales people aren't particularly tech savvy. They seem to think that Linux was a character in the "Peanuts" comic strip, and UNIX are men who've had their balls cut off. How do I avoid having to pay for something I don't want, will never use, and which I intend to discard as soon as the new system is free of the cardboard and styrofoam? Any ideas?

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: jtpenrod ]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by jtpenrod:
Do I still have to pay for the pre-installed Win XP? Circuit City was no help here as they tell me that they get the computers with XP already on them.
[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: jtpenrod ]

Doesn't this suck?!?  I "assume" that Microsoft has deals with the major hardware vendors where if they sell their hardware with MS software on it they get the software for very little cost, and I also assume that they get the best prices on MS software by not selling machines without an OS installed or with an alternative OS. I'm not sure but I believe this was the case in the past and apparently wasn't rectified in the latest Microsoft law suit. This is one of the mojor reasons Microsoft has a monopoly.  You can't even get a desktop machine from the top PC vendors without MS software on it. I remember hearing an arrogant reason for this going something like: A computer needs to have an OS in order to be used and if computers are sold without an OS, people will pirate Windows and Microsoft will not be paid their due (not taking into consideration that there are many alternative OSs).  Microsoft believes they deserve a piece of every PC sold.

Hopefully someone can comment more factually about the reasons for this but what can we do?  How can we change this? I don't have a good answer other than I am willing to spend a few extra bucks and build my own machines with the hardware I want and put a real operating system on it and make sure Microsoft doesn't get any of my money (although it wouldn't shock me if they don't get some sort of royalties from hard drive and other component manufacturers).

One would think that a PC manufacture could sell the same PC in Circuit City, minus MS, minus the cost of the OS as an option and make the same amount of profit and make everyone happy (except Microsoft).  So they must have reasons, good or bad.

We probably wont put a big dent in computer sales initially from these vendors and outlets but I for one stand on my principles and do not pay the piper, I encourage others to do the same.  If we don't stand by our principles we are just brainless robots.  If enough people do this, things could change.  The government certainly can't seem to do anything to change it.

---
MAKEUSEFUL="swapon"
for USELESSOS in `grep fat /etc/fstab | cut -c1-10`
do
  umount $USELESSOS
  mkswap -c $USELESSOS
  $MAKEUSEFUL $USELESSOS
done

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Martin]

Hi jtpendrod,

I am essentially in the same boat as you are.  I am in the market for a new computer and I am trying like hell to avoid Microcraps new XP and I'm finding it difficult as hell.  Other than buying a Mac, the only route that I can see myself going is piecing together a computer, but I really don't want to do that.  The next option I've found is that I can buy from a vendor that offers systems without XP installed.  Its hard to find, but a few like iBUYPOWER.com and some others do offer the option of not loading an OS when they send it.  Of course, then we have to worry about the reliability of the vendor that we are buying from.  One thing i do is go to the Better Business Bureau's website to check if the company that I might buy a computer from seems reputable.  Finally, you could always just buy the compter and then let the OS software you buy get rid of the XP and then install itself, but that's selling out for the most part i think.  As far as the whole issue of having to buy a computer with XP, that really sucks.  For more info on M$ anti-trust issues go to cptech.org, a great Ralph Nader started organization that has lots of info on all electronic/tech anti-trust issues.  The site is no-frills, but its got lots of info....Good luck.

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Martin ]

[saquarrier]

Just build the system or get a freind to help you with it.  It is just a hour or two, and you save over a hunderd bucks, and get a system that you intemenly know the insides of, and in my expiriance will be more stable.

[Centurian]

Hey jtpenrod,

Here is a place where you can get a 100% linux compatible computer with the OS of your choice installed on it. (Even MS)
http://www.linuxcomputersystems.com/
 
Right now they have athlon 800 w/128m ram for 525 USD. We don't have a Circuit City near me so tell me is that better that than Circuit City is offering?

Later
Centurian

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Centurian:
Hey jtpenrod,
Right now they have athlon 800 w/128m ram for 525 USD. We don't have a Circuit City near me so tell me is that better that than Circuit City is offering?

We have a nice little hardware place within driving distance of where I live with good prices http://www.jbtech.com/.  For the price on the system you mention above I built a 1.6Ghz Athalon machine with a Soyo Dragon+ motherboard, 512MB RAM, GeForce II GTS w/32MB video card, and floppy drive.

I already had a 19" monitor, a 40GB drive, 52X CD, keyboard and mouse that I moved out of my older machine so that would bring the price up but this thing SCREAMS!!  RedHat 7.2 installed and detected all my hardware (including the onboard sound and Ethernet) in about 15 minutes total from initial bootup from CD.

I run VMWare on this machine and have TWO Sun Solaris x86 servers running in VMWare along with Win98 (as a novelty) and they all screem.  Nothing runs slow. If you full screen the Windows session you would never now that the other 3 OSs are running behind the scenes.  RAM is *cheap* right now.. I would pile as much in as I could.  I got 512MB for $80.  128MB is just too skimpy if you want to do any serious work.

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Centurian]

Hey VoidMain,

Good point.

Later
Centurian

[jtpenrod]

There's something to be said for walking into a store like Circuit City and walking out with a complete system. (Sometimes I get a little lazy) I looked, found that most places, either on-line or bricks & mortar just offer that God-awful Win XP (if you're lucky(?) they might put Win ME on it for you instead) And there are always some flaw in the complete system (250W PS - too small, no DVD drive, maybe a DVD, but no CD-RW, etc.) Perhaps you could uninstall, jump through all sorts of legal hoops, then, maybe, get a refund from Redmond for Macro$uck software you won't use.

So I decided t'hell with it; I'll just build a new system. (http://www.tomshardware.com - most helpful) I'll also check out that www.jbtech.com site as well. Anyway, thanks guys.

[triploop]

quote:I looked, found that most places, either on-line or bricks & mortar just offer that God-awful Win XP (if you're lucky(?) they might put Win ME on it for you instead)

Ok, that was pretty stupid.  Although this is fuckmicrosoft.com, it has good reasons for what it says.  You however are spouting inane bullshit.  First of all, if you want the best system, you build it yourself.  You can not buy a system from a large vendor and expect best bang for your buck and best performance, options, etc.

Second of all, WinXP is not the root of all evil.  It is merely Win2K with more features, more dos and game support, more driver support, and more overall bloat.  It is nonetheless still based on Windows NT, which was a rather stable operating system and continues to prove so.  Now I'm all for using alternative software, but bashing Microsloth for completely idiotic reasons, is no better than saying "only super-geeks use Linux!".

So what exactly DO you want?  What OS do you want to use?  Do you even know?  You complain about them putting garbage MS software on your system, but what would you use?  Have you ever tried Linux?  If you're even remotely close to a beginner, Linux is most likely not for you!  Although Linux Mandrake 8 may work well, I fail to see why any non-expert computer user would wish to use that as opposed to Windows.  The "standard" user wants to play games, wants something that just works quick and easy, etc.  Winbloze provides the ignorant bliss that most people want.

Whether you want to believe it or not, us people who want to use alternative software are a minority.     Although, definitely a growing one.

[voidmain]

quote:I fail to see why any non-expert computer user would wish to use that as opposed to Windows.[/QB]

Because you can't *become* an expert computer user  by only using Windows.

[jtpenrod]

Geez, triploop, what are you doing on a site like *this*?(!)

   

quote: You however are spouting inane bullshit. First of all, if you want the best system, you
         build it yourself. You can not buy a system from a large vendor and expect best bang for your buck and best performance, options, etc.

Had you bothered to read my last post, you would know that I've *already* decided to build, not buy. "You can not... expect best bang for your buck and best performance, options, etc." Why the hell not? Isn't that just good business?

   

quote:Second of all, WinXP is not the root of all evil. It is merely Win2K with more features, more dos and game support, more driver support, and more overall bloat.  

Yes, it does indeed have more features:
* a Fisher-Price-esque desktop that looks like it  was designed for four-year-olds (all that's    missing is the teletubbies).

* Nagware that constantly bugs me to sign up for a Passport every time I go on-line. Just what I want: to entrust *all* my personal and financial data to the company with the very best security track record in all of IT history. ROTFLMAO!

* Plays my MP3s with all the sound quality of a Victorola.

* WPA - Such a useful feature, especially for those who do frequent upgrades/experimentation with new hardware.

*Game support: My games of choice are: Qt, Fox, GCC and Python. (Although I must confess that I've wasted an obscene number of hours playing "Icebreaker")

FYI: The Voyager space probes that have explored every planet in the outer solar system, except for Pluto, have on-board computers that are based upon the 4004 - four bit word length, and a master ocsillator running at 100KHz (over four orders of magnitude slower than a Pentium IV). The Apollo spacecraft had on-board computers with all of 32KB of RAM. I have a Dell OptiPlex GXa: Pentium II (232MHz, 32MB RAM, 2.0GB hard drive). By early 1970s standards, that would be a big iron mainframe. Yet I can't use Win XP to send my mom an E-mail across town because I don't have a powerful enough computer. That's not bloat; that's obscene.

   

quote: So what exactly DO you want? What OS do you want to use? Do you even know? You complain about them putting garbage MS software on your system, but what would you use?

Dual boot Mandrake and Debian (as if it's any of your GD business).

   

quote:  Linux is most likely not for you! Although Linux Mandrake 8 may work well, I fail to see why any non-expert computer user would
         wish to use that as opposed to Windows. The "standard" user wants to play games, wants something that just works quick and easy, etc. Winbloze provides the ignorant bliss that most
         people want.

You ever used Mandrake? Do you *even* know what it is? There is *nothing*, absolutely *NOTHING*, that you can't do from the KDE desktop. There are even GUI frontends for Vi and EMACS that bring point 'n' click simplicity to these UNIX standbys. Both are one HELL of a lot more capable than "Notepad" or "Wordpad" and, now, no more difficult to use (although I prefer to use them from the command line). Anyone with enough smarts to learn Winblows can learn Mandrake with equal ease. If they want, they never even have to see a command line or shell script if they don't want to. Nor will they have to look at that BSOD, or wear the paint off their CTRL, ALT, or DELETE keys. (Mandrake doesn't keep its users perpetually dumb: it allows their expertise to grow if they want. Can Winblows claim the same?)

   

quote: Whether you want to believe it or not, us people who want to use alternative software are a minority.

You sure don't sound (so to speak) like one of "us people". Perhaps if the legal eagles of the DOJ would get off their worthless asses and acually *do* something about Macro$uck - a good place to start would be to put an end to His Gatesness' shaking down and extorting the OEMs - perhaps that minority might grow faster were it possible to walk into a Circuit City or Costco or BestBuy, etc. and walk out with a complete system with an alternative OS on it.

So I ask you: just who on this thread is "spouting inane bullshit"?

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: jtpenrod ]

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: jtpenrod ]