Author Topic: Run OSX on x86  (Read 6180 times)

Laukev7

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« Reply #15 on: 11 May 2004, 19:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by insomnia:


I mean functionality.
(adding extra hardware and stuff)



What about it? Powermacs are just as customisable as any other hardware. You can even build your own Mac.

http://www.macopz.com/buildamac/

insomnia

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« Reply #16 on: 11 May 2004, 19:31 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:


What about it? Powermacs are just as customisable as any other hardware. You can even build your own Mac.

http://www.macopz.com/buildamac/



I said extra.
Like a all Sony MP3 players, ...

[ May 11, 2004: Message edited by: insomnia ]

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
R. Stallman

http://www.pvda.be/


flap

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« Reply #17 on: 11 May 2004, 19:34 »
quote:
That's only one aspect, and as I have said it doesn't necessarily concern you.


So what is there that is of interest to me? What compelling reason could I have to switch?

 
quote:
the best part is that the user-friendliness is implemented in a way that maximises flexibility for everyone (not just the hardcore command line users, though that option is fully available),


I understand that OSX has everything a UNIX system has, but then what's the point in using it if that's all you're going to use (which would probably be true in my case)?

 
quote:
Compatibility is actually a strong point of OS X, as it allows you to run many commercial as well as OSS/free software, Mac OS Classic software and Windows software with VirtualPC (and soon Darwine).


The point about compatibility is this; when you have the type of user friendliness you get with operating systems like OSX and Windows, you always have to sacrifice flexibility. For example, you can make hardware and software installation relatively easy on those systems as you know the end user is always (or at least usually) going to be using a stock kernel without modifications, so you can give them binary drivers. Similiarly, software installation can be made easy because you know they'll always be running one standard version of the Operating System, with a standard windowing environment, etc. And Aqua, or the Windows shell, can be designed so that applications can all integrate with each other and share resources like a clipboard.

Unfortunately that all results in loss of flexibility. For example, you can choose not to use Aqua, but then you can't use all of the Aqua applications. If you decide to radically reconfigure your system then all of the user-friendly features that depended on that standardisation won't work anymore. All of which presumably would defeat the object of using OSX in the first place.

IMHO the major advantage of Unix is in the cross-platform compatibility i.e. in most cases software written for one Unix type system will compile and run on any Unix system, on any hardware. You can't have this type of compatibility if applications are all released as binary packages, and designed to be installed on a single very specific system. Similarly, you can't rely on programs running anywhere if you demand that a particular fancy WM is available. This is why I don't have KDE or GNOME installed. I don't like to tie myself to a specific WM, let alone an OS.
"While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is none other than the United States of America." - Ernesto Che Guevara

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Laukev7

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« Reply #18 on: 11 May 2004, 20:18 »
quote:
So what is there that is of interest to me? What compelling reason could I have to switch?


I don't know what your needs are. You probably have no reason to switch to the Mac (unless you want to save time by using a development tool that completes your code and compiles it as you type it), but that doesn't mean others might not be missing a platform that would suit their needs than the one they're currently using.

   
quote:
Like a all Sony MP3 players, ...


Oh, really?

[ May 11, 2004: Message edited by: Laukev7 ]


flap

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« Reply #19 on: 11 May 2004, 20:35 »
quote:
I don't know what your needs are. You probably have no reason to switch to the Mac


So then basically it isn't "my loss"?

 
quote:
(unless you want to save time by using a development tool that completes your code and compiles it as you type it)


I don't. I hate code completion (I've always turned it off in any IDE I've been using) and I don't really see the value of that 'predictive compilation' feature. That's why after having used IDEs like Visual C++, Delphi, KDevelop, Netbeans and others I'm back to coding using a text editor and a command line.
"While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is none other than the United States of America." - Ernesto Che Guevara

http://counterpunch.org
http://globalresearch.ca


insomnia

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« Reply #20 on: 11 May 2004, 20:40 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:


Oh, really?

[ May 11, 2004: Message edited by: Laukev7 ]



Yes, really!
Most of them are only pc compatible.
Same thing with most cheap webcams, cheap printers, cheap beatboxes, cheap ...
Companies don't make cheap things for a very expensive architecture.

A (rich) friend of me has mac, but also just bought a pc to run all those things.
Mac has a very big compatibility problem.
It's just to limited!

Also, do you actually claim, OSX is a better(or even just as good) platform for programmers?!
(unless you're a graphical designer)

PS: Bashing any OS is always easy.
A perfect OS simply doesn't exist.
Just accept the fact that different people have different needs.    ;)

[ May 11, 2004: Message edited by: insomnia ]

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
R. Stallman

http://www.pvda.be/


Laukev7

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« Reply #21 on: 11 May 2004, 21:17 »
quote:
Most of them are only pc compatible.


They CLAIM they are only PC compatible, but it's not like most of them claim to be Linux compatible, either.

 
quote:
Companies don't make cheap things for a very expensive architecture.


That's a ridiculous argument. There is plenty of cheap hardware that is Mac only. All companies need to do is write the drivers and use USB. There are even open source drivers for OS X.

 
quote:
Also, do you actually claim, OSX is a better(or even just as good) platform for programmers?!


Yes. At least just as good.

 
quote:
A perfect OS simply doesn't exist.


I didn't claim that. For people who use command line there is little point in using OS X.

[ May 11, 2004: Message edited by: Laukev7 ]


insomnia

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« Reply #22 on: 11 May 2004, 21:22 »
quote:
Yes. At least just as good.

Keep dreaming.

[ May 11, 2004: Message edited by: insomnia ]

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
R. Stallman

http://www.pvda.be/


insomnia

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« Reply #23 on: 11 May 2004, 21:39 »
quote:
They CLAIM they are only PC compatible, but it's not like most of them claim to be Linux compatible, either.


Did I mention Linux?
I was only talking about PC and Mac.
But still, I've never seen somting that I couldn't connect with Linux (This is mostly a legal matter, if it runs on PC, it will run on linux).

 
quote:
That's a ridiculous argument. There is plenty of cheap hardware that is Mac only. All companies need to do is write the drivers and use USB. There are even open source drivers for OS X.


We must have a different opinion about 'cheap'!

 
quote:
I didn't claim that. For people who use command line there is little point in using OS X.


You did claim all people would change to OSX once they've seen it. I don't see the difference.

PS: Sorry about the many late editing I just did.

  ;)
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
R. Stallman

http://www.pvda.be/


KernelPanic

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« Reply #24 on: 11 May 2004, 22:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by Viper:
Well, it looks like a PPC emulator has finally been created.

http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/index.html

Screenshots,

http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html

There is a version of the emulator for Windows and Linux. This is the first release of the emulator, it will only get better over time.      

[ May 11, 2004: Message edited by: Viper ]




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Contains scenes of mild peril.

Paladin9

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« Reply #25 on: 11 May 2004, 22:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:
stuff


 
quote:
Originally posted by flap:
stuff


 
quote:
Originally posted by insomnia:
stuff


Lets just say that OSX is great for old people who do not know how to use a mouse and for advanced users you use the command line a lot.  And if you can not afford a mac, then fine.  Do not buy one.  I have one, and I like it very much.(Actually I have many macs from over time)
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Laukev7

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« Reply #26 on: 11 May 2004, 23:17 »
quote:
You did claim all people would change to OSX once they've seen it. I don't see the difference.


Sorry about that. What I really meant was that it would give Windows and Linux users without a Mac the chance to see the merits of OS X. I was assuming that people who would use OS X on a PPC emulator would do it to try out OS X, and hardcore UNIX users would probably keep their OS.

insomnia

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« Reply #27 on: 12 May 2004, 03:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:


Sorry about that. What I really meant was that it would give Windows and Linux users without a Mac the chance to see the merits of OS X. I was assuming that people who would use OS X on a PPC emulator would do it to try out OS X, and hardcore UNIX users would probably keep their OS.



O.K.
No problem with that.
  ;)
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
R. Stallman

http://www.pvda.be/


hm_murdock

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« Reply #28 on: 12 May 2004, 03:56 »
quote:
At least not when it's at the cost of flexibility/compatibility, which user friendliness always is.


What flexibility and compatibility would that be? I can run *nix, Cocoa, Carbon, Classic, GNUstep, Windows, Linux... and an endless list of other platform apps.

Oh no! Limited compatibility!

 
quote:
What about the limitations of the architecture of a mac.


The same limitations as x86 PCs?

 
quote:
GNU is meant to be an entire free system.
Not only partly...


Who gives a shit? OS X, like the other STEPs before it use BSD code for the UNIX layer. BSD is "open and free" as well.

 
quote:
(If I had a mac, I whould still run Linux on it.)


And you would receive no benefits of the machine. That would be like buying a Mercedes turbo diesel sedan and then putting a 4cyl engine out of some crappy american rustbucket >COUGHFORDCOUGHFOCUSCOUGH< in it.

 
quote:
I said extra.
Like a all Sony MP3 players, ...


Who gives a fuck about Sony?

 
quote:
I understand that OSX has everything a UNIX system has, but then what's the point in using it if that's all you're going to use (which would probably be true in my case)?


It has more. See, you're stuck in the mindset of "good ol' timey UNIX" and can't see past your turned up nose. OS X is a STEP, and therefore is superior in every way, thanks to its heritage.

Just as GenSTEP atop Komodo is a definite forwarding of Linux, so the classic STEPs are the evolution of UNIX. The STEP concept is to implement advanced object-oriented ideas and structures atop an advanced core.

OS X's core and UNIX layer are easily more advanced than the current incarnations of the Linux kernel and uninspired distros that now exist.

Mach and Linux are easily technologically equal, but once you get past the kernel, forget it. OS X makes all but a few Linux distros look like shit.

 
quote:
as you know the end user is always (or at least usually) going to be using a stock kernel without modifications, so you can give them binary drivers.


God knows you need so many kernels to choose from. If you can't pick between 50 different possibilities, then you're getting shafted.

 
quote:
they'll always be running one standard version of the Operating System, with a standard windowing environment, etc. And Aqua, or the Windows shell, can be designed so that applications can all integrate with each other and share resources like a clipboard.


Which is good. CONSISTENCY IS RULE ONE.

You stand for a legacy of inconsistent, poor UI design, flakily designed apps, and piss poor implementation. You're defending a legacy which brought us the pop-up menu, focus-follows-mouse, and other such heinous interface crimes.

 
quote:
Unfortunately that all results in loss of flexibility.


Good. The hallmark of good UI is flexibility within bounds. I don't see the ability to completely change desktop apps on-the-fly to be a great feature.

 
quote:
For example, you can choose not to use Aqua, but then you can't use all of the Aqua applications.


Want me to show you a screenshot of OS X running an appearance other than Aqua? It's easy. I think you mean without Quartz. Good fucking luck. I challenge you to easily stop CoreGraphics from starting... without breaking the entire system.

 
quote:
If you decide to radically reconfigure your system then all of the user-friendly features that depended on that standardisation won't work anymore.


I wonder... could that mean you shouldn't fuck around with the OS? Yes, I think it does.

 
quote:
All of which presumably would defeat the object of using OSX in the first place.


That's right, as the object of running OS X is to glean its benefits, which are

1) Consistency
2) Superior design
3) Superior implementation
4) STEP Heritage

 
quote:
IMHO the major advantage of Unix is in the cross-platform compatibility i.e. in most cases software written for one Unix type system will compile and run on any Unix system, on any hardware.


I guess now would be a bad time for me to show you some KDE apps running on OS X?

 
quote:
You can't have this type of compatibility if applications are all released as binary packages,


Who gives a shit? People don't give a fuck about that. They want to be able to run their software easily. It's that elitist mindset that's holding Linux back. It's our forward-minded ideas that drive GenSTEP and Komodo that will do what you never thought Linux could do. Compete.

 
quote:
and designed to be installed on a single very specific system. Similarly, you can't rely on programs running anywhere if you demand that a particular fancy WM is available.


Sure you can... as long as there's a standard API. Linux needs this. "Freedom of Choice" is hurting adoption because there's chaos for developers and end-users.

 
quote:
This is why I don't have KDE or GNOME installed. I don't like to tie myself to a specific WM, let alone an OS.


Okay.

 
quote:
I'm back to coding using a text editor and a command line.


Fortunately, the rest of us choose not to live in the 1970s. For us there is Xcode, and GNUstep's Project Center.

 
quote:
Also, do you actually claim, OSX is a better(or even just as good) platform for programmers?!


Yes.

1) Cocoa
2) Carbon
3) Objective-C
4) Xcode
5) Standard APIs

 
quote:
Keep dreaming.


I will. I dream that one day everybody will know the benefits of the STEP way.

 
quote:
PS: Bashing any OS is always easy.
A perfect OS simply doesn't exist.
Just accept the fact that different people have different needs.


How true!

But, a perfect OS does exist. It is called OPENSTEP.

Bode bode bode bode!

I WIN AGAIN!

As always, I am right.

You will all soon learn the error of your ways, and see the light. GenSTEP and Komodo march ever onward... toward release, and a BRIGHTER FUTURE FOR TOMMORROW!
Go the fuck ~

insomnia

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« Reply #29 on: 12 May 2004, 04:08 »
Euhm...
Are you drunk?

PS: I finally managed to make komodo ap1 work on my system.    
I'll post some results tomorrow(I still don't really understand why it suddenly works).
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
R. Stallman

http://www.pvda.be/