Apple and Linux Beneficial to Each Other?

[Crunchy(Cracked)Butter]

quote:Originally posted by Panos:

I'm not here to speak on behalf of Apple.

Well tough shit i've decided that you are.

Hey i even wouldn't mind if Apple ported the pro version and had to pay, as long as they do it.

[Calum]

i didn't mean to offend you panos, it;s just that i am a bit sick of applemac users turning one way or the other just when it suits them. you never know if they will be extolling the virtues of unix or ruthlessly bashing 'PC' users.

i don't trust apple and i don't trust those who stick up for them blindly, and i am sorry if i portrayed you as somebody who is blindly following apple. and there's nothing wrong with your english either.

[Pantso]

quote:Originally posted by Crunchy(Cracked)Butter:


Well tough shit i've decided that you are.    

Hey i even wouldn't mind if Apple ported the pro version and had to pay, as long as they do it.

Hehe.    Believe me I agree with you guys. I too would like to see more software being ported to Linux, including QuickTime and many more apps that worth it.

[Pissed_Macman]

EDIT: What the hell am I talking about??

[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Macman: LITERALLY a genius / bob ]

[Pantso]

quote:i didn't mean to offend you panos, it;s just that i am a bit sick of applemac users turning one way or the other just when it suits them. you never know if they will be extolling the virtues of unix or ruthlessly bashing 'PC' users.

I know and I assure you that I'm not one of those people.    

 

quote:i don't trust apple and i don't trust those who stick up for them blindly

Neither do I, believe me. It's almost impossible for me also to trust blindly any big corporation (including Apple) for various reasons let alone stick up for them blindly.

 

quote:Or how about an anti-Windows ad campaign?

That would be nice, but you must have heard the following saying: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you".  

[psyjax]

First off, as someone pointed out Apple is severing the ties with M$. They are not M$'s bitch, infact quite the contrary, now that Apple has the OSS community on it's side it's basically telling M$ to go shove it. They don't need them.

Safari is going to be the default browser, bye bye IE, KeyNotes will replace PowerPoint, and OpenOffice is rapidly aproaching Final status.

It is becoming clear that Apple sided with OSS not to somehow "steal" from it, but rather to sever the ties to the evil empire. That's a major reason.

And as far as giving back...

Well, first off you are not restricted to PPC for Darwin. There is an X86 version. Also, you can get it to run on custom made PPC boxes like the ones being offered over at www.yellowdoglinux.com.

Third of all, why are you bitching at Apple to give back to the open source community, it has, there are dozzens of Open Source PPC and Mac developers now. Tons of little projects on sourceForge etc. Just because they are PPC only dosn't make them not OSS or GNU! What about AmigaOS, do you complain about them not giving back to the x86 platform?

What the hell did Mandrake ever "give back", or "Debian", etc. Yet you don't complain, it's the little OSS programmers that make the goods, not the company compiling the distro.

Should us Mac users complain that WINE hasn't been given to us in the PPC market? Should we complain that Gnome hasn't ported it's Desktop environment to Aqua? Or that Xmms dosn't even work on PPC's!

I wan't the RedHat package manager on my Mac, shit, I guess Linux hasn't given me smak, grrr... grumble... grumble ... RPMs rock! grrumble

If that's not a convincing argument, then why not complain about Sun developing it's OS only for the SunSparc processors. Or the dozens of "wierd" chips out there that linux/*NIX has been ported to. You don't bitch about those companies having to give back.

And fuck! If you don't think Apple has "given back", show me the fucking applications and code you have contributed to the OSS community lately? I bet you Apple has given back a damn site more than you leaches....

ooooo... struck a nerve....

[preacher]

quote:Originally posted by psyjax: plain 'ol psyjax:
Third of all, why are you bitching at Apple to give back to the open source community, it has, there are dozzens of Open Source PPC and Mac developers now. Tons of little projects on sourceForge etc. Just because they are PPC only dosn't make them not OSS or GNU! What about AmigaOS, do you complain about them not giving back to the x86 platform?

Im complaining because I dont see how linux is benefiting from Mac OS joining the open source community. Yes mac developers are creating open source projects, but they are only for Mac Os, not for linux or any other OS. A lot of open source projects for linux also have windows and mac ports.

 

quote:
What the hell did Mandrake ever "give back", or "Debian", etc. Yet you don't complain, it's the little OSS programmers that make the goods, not the company compiling the distro.

What did Mandrake give? It gave us a powerful set of software preconfigured to run together and be secure and easy to use, all of this for free. As for innovation, the people at MandrakeSoft created a lot of the configuration utilities, the installer, they added a lot of custom drivers to the kernel to support a lot more hardware than the stock linux kernel, and all for free. The same for Debian, including the fact that they created the great apt-get package management system. All for free. They give thousands of man hours and dollars of work away for free. You ask what they give back, the answer is more than Apple ever will.

 

quote:
Should us Mac users complain that WINE hasn't been given to us in the PPC market? Should we complain that Gnome hasn't ported it's Desktop environment to Aqua? Or that Xmms dosn't even work on PPC's!

Actually you can probably use gnome on mac os X. Look here http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/
Also Im pretty sure you can get xmms working on your ppc too using fink. Check out http://sourceforge.net/projects/fink/
 

quote:
I wan't the RedHat package manager on my Mac, shit, I guess Linux hasn't given me smak, grrr... grumble... grumble ... RPMs rock! grrumble

You want rpm's on your ppc? Guess what, Yellow Dog Linux is based on Red Hat, so its not as hard as you think.


 

quote:
And fuck! If you don't think Apple has "given back", show me the fucking applications and code you have contributed to the OSS community lately? I bet you Apple has given back a damn site more than you leaches....

ooooo... struck a nerve....

Actually I did help in the development of the open source project BZFlag, I havent seen anything from Apple other than Darwin itself, which is nothing special at all since we have linux, the BSD's, and more.

[Crunchy(Cracked)Butter]

@Psyjax

Somebody assumes that some of use are leeches and don't give anything to the OSC.

I can code in java (only java) however i'm not fluent enough so instead of contributing code which would be useless, i give money instead, not only do i make donations but i also purchase the distros i use.

Also the argument about Apple porting WINE to their platform.  They can if they want because its free, this is what i was saying before.  Apple can access nearly everything that is linux and add it to OSX while linux gets the extra code a modifications back.  But linux has to wait until APPLE decides to port something like quicktime.

YOU read my fucking post or what sunshine!

[Calum]

psyjax, you make some good solid points, but i do tend to agree with preacher and butter as well.

i'll be happy if apple go the way you say they are (and you know more about it than me i know) but i am always wary of a company. i am wary of mandrake continually saying their backs are against the wall and asking for spare change (like bill gates did in the late seventies) while they still are pumping out cutting edge linux distros, i am wary of red hat and its RHCE (read: MCSE++) stuff, not to mention that they are the open source microsoft of the world (by choice or not) and i am wary of lindows, the company that would have been microsoft if it had been born 20 years earlier.

Still, all those companies might be saints and angels, i'm just a paranoid cynical bastard.

"sure, i'm paranoid... but am i paranoid enough?" - Unknown.

[flap]

quote:Third of all, why are you bitching at Apple to give back to the open source community, it has, there are dozzens of Open Source PPC and Mac developers now. Tons of little projects on sourceForge etc. Just because they are PPC only dosn't make them not OSS or GNU!

What do they have to do with apple?

All Apple have done to 'contribute' to the community is to take free software, adapt it to form their OS core and then licence the finished result under their "Open Source" but restrictive and non-free APSL.

 

quote:What the hell did Mandrake ever "give back", or "Debian", etc.

I'm thinking the Debian and Mandrake GNU/Linux distributions, for a start.

 

quote:Should us Mac users complain that WINE hasn't been given to us in the PPC market? Should we complain that Gnome hasn't ported it's Desktop environment to Aqua? Or that Xmms dosn't even work on PPC's!

No-one is expecting Apple to do their work for them. If you have the specifications for a file format or source code for an application you can easily develop free software to use that file format or port the software to another platform. No-one is *deliberately preventing* Mac users or Apple themsevles from porting any of those programs you list. You can't say the same about Apple's proprietary software.

 

quote:then why not complain about Sun developing it's OS only for the SunSparc processors

Well, actually, there's an x86 version but...
But yes, I would say "Fuck Sun" just as I say "Fuck MS" and "Fuck Apple"; they're all fundamentally as bad as each other as far as their software development ethics go.

[Calum]

well said  

quote:No-one is *deliberately preventing* Mac users or Apple themsevles from porting any of those programs you list. You can't say the same about Apple's proprietary software.

here's the pivotal point about which i disagree with most applemac users. i agree with this statement and anybody who doesn't is obviously wrong.

[psyjax]

Well, just because Apple makes proprietary software dosn't make them evil. IBM makes proprietary software it runs on their Linux servers, Maya for RedHat is proprietary. Those companys aren't necissarly Satan.

I think what I was really getting at is that OSS comes from the developers. Dick and Jane programmer who contribute, not the company. And I think you guys are being a bit unfair to say that because most of the OSS being contributed runs only on PPC that somehow it's inherently bad. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Shit I can name dozens of x86 stuff I wish the Mac had.

Furthermore it IS OSS. So you can try to port it if you wan't.

As far as Apple benifiting from Linux, anyone can build a PPC box, or an x86 box and run darwin and benifit from all the OSS. But people don't, because "darwin is to limeted", well, that's the point isn't it! Get the code and make it grow.

You don't like Apple's software policy? Reverse engeneer the .mov format and make your own QT player.

Also, Safari is full OSS, and is advancing KHTML, maybe there will be more projects like this.

Finaly, maybe it dosn't benifit Linux directly, but I think Apple and OSX have made people more aware of OSS and the GNU. I know I didn't know much about it till I got into OSX.

[flap]

quote:Well, just because Apple makes proprietary software dosn't make them evil.

I disagree.

 

quote:And I think you guys are being a bit unfair to say that because most of the OSS being contributed runs only on PPC that somehow it's inherently bad.

Who's saying that? What we're saying is that Apple have taken Free Software and got the benefit from that but not given their proprietary software back.

And Apple has not made anyone more aware of GNU, they've just made people more aware of "Open Source", which further degrades general awareness of GNU. Apple would never have licenced Darwin under the GPL.

[Calum]

again, good points, while i still agree with butter and preacher.

i do think apple are not being deliberately malicious, just keeping their own interests at the front of their minds, that's all. plus, you are well right about people finding out about non-M$ alternatives now that MacOS is *ix based.

[psyjax]

Ok Im lazy, and I got class in a few minutes, but in order to enlighten this discussion I thought it may be benificial to weirgh the APSL licence agains the GPL

http://www.opensource.apple.com/apsl/

Any takers?