A civilised political discussion

[skyman8081]

I agree, the palestinians do have he right of existance and self-determination.

now the problem is this:

• Israel has claims to some of the land in the middle east.
• Radical Arabic sects feel threatened with a Jewish state.
• Israel has the right to defend its borders

Israel also has the right of existance and self-determination.

[worker201]

Correct.

If Israel is assumed to be a sovereign nation, then they have the same rights as, for example, Syria.  However, if you check into your history, you will see that Israel may not have an acceptable claim to their land, in the same way that Brittain does not have any claim on India.  Very tricky situation.

[Laukev7]

quote: and laukev, dont forget its not the first time the wtc was attacked.

It's not the first time that the US has tried to stage terror attacks, either. Operation Northwoods is but one example.

 

quote: xeen, you said you haven't found any evidence to support the official story. have you really tried to find evidence for it?

It is up to the government to prove the people that it is really Al Qaeda who caused the attacks. Having read the newspaper and watched ABC, I haven't seen proof, and the US government refused to provide it to the Taliban. All I have heard so far is arrests of alleged Al Qaeda members.

[ September 03, 2004: Message edited by: Laukev7 / BOB ]

[flap]

quote:The "They hate our freedom" is only part of it.

No, it isn't any of it. I laugh everytime I hear someone from the administration coming out with that absurd line. That's just a way of stopping Americans from asking the question "Why do they hate us?" It's easier to sate the American populace by telling them that their freedom is under attack rather than making them aware of the real reasons why so many people are justifiably hostile towards the US.

A summary of US false-flag operations and deliberate provocation of other powers to create excuses for military action:

http://www.911review.org/Wiki/FakeTerror.shtml

More on WTC 1993 by Ralph Schoenman:

http://wbaifree.org/takingaim/articles/wtc93.html

There are also lots of good videos on http://www.snowshoefilms.com about 9/11, false flag operations etc from people like Schoenman and Michel Chossouovsky.

[Xeen]

quote:Also xeen I would like you to actually start a post about the 9/11 attacks. I do not know if they were staged or not. I wouldnt doubt it though if they were and I would like to get whatever info you have on it.

I am so lazy right now to type up a good explanantion that includes everything about 9/11 being a scam.

Here are a few videos you MUST watch:
http://pages.infinit.net/noc/pentagon.swf
http://www.question911.com/

Finally, here is another movie about the events of 9/11:
http://www.911inplanesite.com/
This is the 9/11 movie that is being sent to people all across the country, and is being discussed everywhere where 9/11 truth is being discussed.
It's not a free movie...but you can download it from any file sharing service for free.

ALso, go to amazon.com and check out the dozens of books about 9/11.

I'll try to write some stuff up later. ALso note that the 9/11 truth movement is growing very fast. Already lots of news and talk radio shows nationwide are discussing the truth, letters by citizens are being sent out to government and news agencies, etc.. There are also lots of 9/11 truth protests going on, but the mainstream media doesn't report on them. It may take another week, month, year, or possibly years before the truth behind 9/11 sparks the 2nd American Revolution but make no doubt about it - it will. My money's on sometime within the next year.

[ September 03, 2004: Message edited by: xeen ]

[flap]

quote:Originally posted by the stiller:
ive even heard that a plane didn't hit the pentagon. which made me think why wouldn't the US use a real plane if they wanted to make it look authentic.

Unfortunately it didn't look "authentic", as eyewitnesses described seeing something that looked like a military plane or a missile. There was a number of cameras that recorded the crash and whose footage would presumably clear this up, but the FBI confiscated it all and it's never been released. Now what possible excuse could they have for doing that?

There is a lot of information about the 9/11 discrepancies, but here are just a couple of recent articles:

One about flight 93, which supposedly was brought down by a struggle between the passengers and hijackers, but which looks like it was shot down:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/WAL403A.html

And another about the supposed cell phones made from people in the planes, which seemingly couldn't possibly have been made:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO408B.html

[ September 03, 2004: Message edited by: flap ]

[shuiend]

Well since this has gotten off topic and now is more or less about 9/11 I would like to throw in some other linkis that I have found.

 Physics behind pentgon attack

From the wilderness

I have not done to much research into this matter but I definately think that out there is a truth we need to know.

[Stilly]

quote:Originally posted by xeen:


I am so lazy right now to type up a good explanantion that includes everything about 9/11 being a scam.

Here are a few videos you MUST watch:
http://pages.infinit.net/noc/pentagon.swf
http://www.question911.com/

Finally, here is another movie about the events of 9/11:
http://www.911inplanesite.com/
This is the 9/11 movie that is being sent to people all across the country, and is being discussed everywhere where 9/11 truth is being discussed.
It's not a free movie...but you can download it from any file sharing service for free.

ALso, go to amazon.com and check out the dozens of books about 9/11.

I'll try to write some stuff up later. ALso note that the 9/11 truth movement is growing very fast. Already lots of news and talk radio shows nationwide are discussing the truth, letters by citizens are being sent out to government and news agencies, etc.. There are also lots of 9/11 truth protests going on, but the mainstream media doesn't report on them. It may take another week, month, year, or possibly years before the truth behind 9/11 sparks the 2nd American Revolution but make no doubt about it - it will. My money's on sometime within the next year.

[ September 03, 2004: Message edited by: xeen ]

2nd american revolution within a year? care to bet on that?

the biggest flaw i see with the arguments is that the people making these sites and movies more than likely dont know what they're talking about. they have pretty good guesses as to what you'd expect to happen but it just seems to much like a fake moonlanding. before you go into the whole "but stillmon you hot dude, phds have backed these claims" thing, a phd doesn't really mean you know everything about plane crashes. what about all the phds and dudes that support the story?

oh yeah, and about people saying they thought they saw a missile. those could easily be taken out of context. and afterall, planes look like missiles.

[Xeen]

quote:Originally posted by the stiller:


2nd american revolution within a year? care to bet on that?

the biggest flaw i see with the arguments is that the people making these sites and movies more than likely dont know what they're talking about. they have pretty good guesses as to what you'd expect to happen but it just seems to much like a fake moonlanding. before you go into the whole "but stillmon you hot dude, phds have backed these claims" thing, a phd doesn't really mean you know everything about plane crashes. what about all the phds and dudes that support the story?

oh yeah, and about people saying they thought they saw a missile. those could easily be taken out of context. and afterall, planes look like missiles.

First of all, what I meant was that the 9/11 truth movement in my opinion will go mainstream within the next 1-2 years definately. It's already exploded tremendously within the last 3 months!

As for everything else you said, I wouldn't mind having a debate over all the evidence, but only after you watch at least the free videos that I've listed. If you haven't seen it, there's really no point in talking to you about it.

And yes, of course nobody in the truth movement knows anything 100%. But the fact of the matter is that there is almost no evidence supporting the government story except for "the government said so". Face it, they've never proved anything and you gotta admit that inexplicable secrecy means they've got something to hide. On the other hand, the other side's got tons of evidence. If the government story is true, why don't they come out and prove it and make the truth people look like idiots?

Anyway, please watch the short flash video about the Pentagon, and then you MUST watch the free 4-part Painful Deceptions movie.

[Stilly]

i watched the flash movie before my last post, ill make sure to get to the rest in a second.

the government really doesn't have to prove anything. nobody is stepping up to say the official story is right because its the official story and its truth is kind of implied.

but most of the evidence against the story seems like conjecture.

[worker201]

You have to admit, tho, the administration is being extremely dodgy about this.  I thought for sure they would make some kind of official denial about all this, but they just pretend it isn't happening.  Sadly, there is nothing any of us can do to determine the truth.

[Xeen]

.

[ September 04, 2004: Message edited by: xeen ]

[Laukev7]

quote: the government really doesn't have to prove anything.

Of course they don't! Why would they need proof to go on a rampage and bomb the shit out of other countries? They didn't need proof to bomb Iraq, did they?

I mean, it's obvious: America has been attacked by a group of hijackers, 8 of whom have been found alive, and based on a passport which miraculously survied a fire that rendered indestructible black boxes unusable (and doesn't even look like the real person), and with the amazing psychic powers of the FBI, the CIA and the Mossad, it's been found that the hijackers were part of a global Muslim conspiracy to destroy America because they hate their freedoms!

The only 'proof' I have seen so far is a confession video, which has not only been proven by the German media to have been mistranslated, but was an an obvious fake to begin with.

[ September 04, 2004: Message edited by: Laukev7 / BOB ]

[Xeen]

quote:Originally posted by the stiller:
its the official story and its truth is kind of implied.

Oh...it's true because the government says it true! So what you're saying is that if you're ever arrested for something then the prosecutors don't have to prove your guilt and present evidence right? After all, they're the government and if they say you did it then you did it!

[ September 04, 2004: Message edited by: xeen ]

[Stilly]

what i mean is theres probably going to be much more people investigating the official story than people going out of their way to be sure its right. sorry i used kinda weird wording there.

id make a longer reply to worker and laukev if i wasn't about to be gone a day or so.

[ September 04, 2004: Message edited by: the stiller ]