Linux Pro's in the workplace

[mskarl]

OK I am curious how all you Linux Pro's get into Linux in you professional life's.  I'm almost 22 and work for a PLC programing company.  I went to a little well know tech school for 2 years and now have been doing PLC's for a 2 years.  

As I work in a small company I get to do allot of system admin stuff.  Well actually I get to do allot of the system admin stuff that we do in our office which isn't really anything compared to the real world.  
 
I'm interested in getting into Linux admin stuff.  I'm curious as to what the salary range's are.  Now I know it's 1k - 1000000k per year but please give me a real idea.  

Also how did you get into the job?  did you go to college for it?  As far as my beliefs are is that you don't need a CERT saying how well you can study but need to perform what you are expected.  Please give me as much information as you are able to.  

I'm very interested and have been applying myself into learning to setup a firewall (not really a good one) for the concept and Apache web server.  Since from what I can tell Linux is very much in the Web and Server world right?

[badkarma]

Just two words actually in my case, "dumb luck"  

Went to college and did computer science, stopped with college for various reasons after 2 years, sat a year on my ass doing nothing and when I went looking for a job, got hired by the first company where I had an interview as a junior programmer and they (we   ) use linux (we're primarily a software shop as to a networking shop).

My advice to you is too look for a company which asks for jr's judging by your age (and without college education) and hope you get a good mentor  

[voidmain]

Well, learning Linux is a great way to get a head start on learning *NIX in general. If you are good with *NIX it's not hard at all to make $100k+(US) even in lower end markets. Now it's not good to have *only* Linux on your resume so if you hurry you can still download Solaris8 x86 and play with it. Experience is worth more than anything else so don't expect to jump right in and make $100k. Doing some Linux projects may get you in the door though and *most* shops that run Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc also run Linux (even if they do it in secret).  

I happened to get my start as a mainframe programmer and took an interest in the old crappy 3B2 machine (which ran UNIX) but soon after we got some big IBM RS/6000 machines running AIX (IBM Unix) and because of my 3B2 experience I was asked if I wanted to head up administration on the RS/6000s. They didn't have to ask twice. From there I took some AIX classes although they were a waste of time as they didn't teach me anything I didn't already know.

Because of that experience I got another much higher paying job that happened to use Sparc/Solaris (Sun UNIX).  Again I took a couple of Solaris classes which were again a waste of time as I had already learned everything taught in the class on my own. In both places I brought Linux in where it made sense to do so (starting early 1993).

I guess what I am trying to say is, there is not a huge difference between the various vendor versions of *NIX. They are all much the same at their base, sure there are differences but nothing hard to pick up if you know the basics.  So if you try to learn as much as you can with Linux you'll have a great head start in becoming a *NIX systems person.  You might look into RedHat training as they offer professional training, but only if you can get someone else to pay for it (your employer). For a start I would suggest getting some O'Reilly books on UNIX/Linux Systems Administration, TCP/IP, and Shell programming.  These are the most basic things that will springboard you into other areas.

Oh yeah, a Computer Science degree helps in "some" places, however, when I hire people I could give a shit less about the degree or certifications. I've seen college edumicated and certifimicated people who are dumber than a box of rocks. If they can pass my technical interview then they have the job (some people leave crying after my technical intervew BTW.       I may ask you a simple question like "describe an inode").

Good luck!

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[dbl221]

Hehe that was a question on test last semester.  What other gems do you ask in your technical interviews?

ls -i

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by dbl221:
Hehe that was a question on test last semester.  What other gems do you ask in your technical interviews?

ls -i

Well, I didn't mean how do you obtain the inode number of a file, but rather what *is* an inode, the definition, describe it's purpose, and it's properties.

But this would be a cool topic to start. Ask basic interview questions, answer said questions, compile a list. It would be great for both sides of the interview table. What sort of interview questions would you like? i.e. for what operating system? I can throw out questions for Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, *BSD, Windows (all versions except XP).

Say for Solaris I might ask "How would you recover from a lost root password?". Or "Describe the differences between NIS and NIS+". Or "what file determines the resolver order (name resolution order)?".  And of course you have to throw in some basic scripting questions.

Or I might get off into different RAID levels and the differences etc.  It depends on who I am interviewing and for what job and the level of expertise needed.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[dbl221]

An inode is a disk structure that that describes a file.  When the file system is created the number of inodes is set, this is also the maximum number of files on the filesystem.

That was my answer on the midterm,  the ls -i was for the newbies to check out on their systems.

The answer lacks detail but heh Im still in school afterall.  I agree this would make a great new topic.

[voidmain]

Can a file have more than one inode?  Can a single inode be shared among multiple files?  If so, how?

[Calum]

this is a great idea! and while i am a 3 week unix newbie, i will be greatly interested in what you guys have to say. This whole computer thing is something i would like to make a career of sometime, but the more i find out, the more i find out how much i still have to learn!

I rushed over to the Sun Microsystems website like you said and they are now charging US$45 for the i386 version of Solaris 8.    (and still giving the Alpha version away for free  :mad:  )
but at least they mail it to you, which is good for a non broadband person like myself. think i'll hold off for a bit yet till i'm settled with linux though...

What about education? can it be a good thing? or would people recommend steering clear of formalised education in preference to hands on work?
While in Sydney i went on a short course about Windows 98 (of all things!) so that i could have it on paper when i went to apply for temp admin positions (which is what i was doing while travelling) and i learnt a grand total of nothing (surprise surprise) from it that i didn't know already from wrestling win WinME. is it good to have a bit of paper though?

i suppose it depends on yr prospective employer.
I ask because i was thinking of looking into university degrees regarding system administration et c (if there are any)    .
Looking at open learning ones too, so they have to send me all the necessaries and i get to install them on my home computer  

[voidmain]

If you are seriously considering a job with computers a BS would certianly make life easier. But it is my opinion (which is not the same as many many companies) that a BS doesn't make a good computer engineer. The *only* thing that makes a good computer engineer is experience, motivation, desire, and apt. The degree gets you in the door.  

What the BS *does* give you is the non-computer related skills. Of course the higher level math will come in handy if you are thinking about programming.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Gonusto]

quote:The degree gets you in the door.

Glad to know that I'm not wasting my money.

 

quote:Of course the higher level math will come in handy if you are thinking about programming.

Equally glad to know that all my pain and suffering isn't for nought.

 

quote:The *only* thing that makes a good computer engineer is experience, motivation, desire . . .

I've got the desire and the motivation (I think), but what's the best way to go about gaining experience?  We have labs and programs due every week for class, but the problem is these take up all of my time that isn't spent doing work for other classes.  This means I only have time to "learn" what is required to complete the projects and pass the tests . . . It also means I don't have to time to just sit down and expirement with lines of code and *really* learn the ins and outs of the language(s).  I'm forced to learn things at their (the school's) pace . . . not my own.  And I'm afraid I'm not fully learning everythign I need to.  Any advice on what the best way to gain "real" experience is?  Anybody?


-Gonusto

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Gonusto ]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Gonusto:
I've got the desire and the motivation (I think), but what's the best way to go about gaining experience?  We have labs and programs due every week for class, but the problem is these take up all of my time that isn't spent doing work for other classes.  This means I only have time to "learn" what is required to complete the projects and pass the tests .

Isn't life grand? You're damned if you do and your damned if you don't. While you are bustin' your ass in school there is someone else just like you devoting 20 hrs/day leaning/programming on their own and probably learning the "computer" only side of the house much faster. And they probably get a jump start with experience as they might be picking up an apprentice level job somewhere.  By the time you get out of school, they have the experience. People like me may put more weight on experience but there are many that value the certificate. Of course you'll hopefully be skilled in other very important areas that the other guy missed out on.  And it's likely you'll make it up through the management ranks faster with your degree even if you are never as good technically as the other guy.  I've been asked many times to take director level positions and have always refused because I really enjoy the technical side of the house (and I would have to take a pay cut if I became a director    ).

My suggestion to you is, expand your 24 hour day to 36 hours so you can get 12 hours a day of hands on experience while you are going to school. Then you'll have the best of both worlds.  Might also help to take up coffee drinking if you don't already (one habit I never got in to. Mountain Dew works wonders).  And if you figure out how to expand your day to 36 hours let me know the secret because I've been living on about 3 hours sleep a night for the last 15 years.  I think it's causing me to age faster than most.

 

quote:. . It also means I don't have to time to just sit down and expirement with lines of code and *really* learn the ins and outs of the language(s).  I'm forced to learn things at their (the school's) pace . . . not my own.  And I'm afraid I'm not fully learning everythign I need to.  Any advice on what the best way to gain "real" experience is?  Anybody?

How long before you get your degree?  I would say that you don't need a degree to become rich if that is your goal. Anyone with the motivation can make this happen. However, if you have the opportunity now and can afford it, stay in school. It will certainly help you down the road, especially if you have slightly less motivation than you think you have. Nobody that I know of was ever turned down for an interview because they *have* a degree. I know of many examples of people being turned down for *not* having a degree. How's that saying go? Don't be a fool, stay in school?

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Calum]

yup, this is one of the reasons i am considering open learning, as i will get to do the stuff in my own time, and so on, also i will be able to do whatever else investigation i like in the meantime.
Also it is interesting that you say many prospective employers want you to have a degree, because if we don't have a degree, then we will only be considered for employment by those people who don't care about all the BS (ho ho!) such as yrself, and we may well land in a more honest type of position as a result, which is a bonus for me. i have a similar attitude towards tha management structure as it sounds like you do , Main, ie: it's there for a reason but it might not be for me.
I suppose we walk that bit closer to not getting a job in the first place though, and i reckon i need a degree, not to make me learn stuff so much as to let me know *what* stuff to learn. I have an avid interest and basic bog standard short course type education in a lot of technological/mathematical/computer/code related things, but now is the time to seriously dive into a few precise subjects, so i can be great at a few things rather than just passable at a lot.

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[mskarl]

Hey all thanks for all of your posts.  Reading this had made me just want to go home bust my ass for a year and then work for VoidMan.  <---  Probably fat chance in hell because I'm entry lever at my very best but a guy can always wish.

[kinky]

to many would-be employers... certs seem to take more importance than anything.  ive seen too many companies hire complete dumbasses, just cuz they passed some cert test by studing old tests questions and answers and not really knowing the material... or going to a boot camp

but, getting exp, and certs is a good way to get noticed for a job...

and you thought certs were just for your breath