Don't Ban Opera Users

[voidmain]

I used to work for the US government for many years and I *never* used IE. I would be more than happy to come in and fix that for you. I could use the contract work. As far as I am concerned (now as a full tax payer) the US government should use NOTHING BUT free and open source software, period.  Not just for the tax savings but for security reasons.  You have no idea what goes on inside of Microsoft software and are putting full trust in a single corporation based on proprietary code.

It seems especially silly to me that the US government is prosecuting a monopoly case but they continue to feed the monopoly by using their software (that's a completely separate gripe from the security and cost gripe). And I won't get into how much it pisses me off when I see Word documents on government web sites!

When I left in 1996 I had every one of my organizations PCs set up to dual boot between Linux and Windows (Linux being the primary working environment). And we used Novell for our file serving needs and RS/6000 and Sun servers for applications and development and a couple of mainframes for large data applications.

If I were still there today, there would be no Windows partition on the hard drive and there would be no Novell servers.  The desktops would be running Linux with the KDE desktop, mozilla or konqueror for web browsing, Evolution for email, and OpenOffice for office suite.  Mail servers would be Linux/IMAPS/SMTP, Intranet/Internet would be Linux/Apache/PHP, light duty database work would be PostgreSQL/MySQL, larger duty on Oracle/DB2/Sybase, high end development would continue on RS/6000 or Sun.  I can garantee that would have been the case.  I had no problem suggesting this sort of path with my superiors because it made sense, it saved money, and always worked better. Believe me they were very reserved at first and it wasn't easy slipping Linux in at first (around 1993-1994 very different than today's Linux). But once they saw the real benefit it was easy.  Eventually they threw away the leash.

Good luck, and I am serious about my offer of help if interested.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Kage]

You won't.  You can't.  Working for the government, you would know that at all the sites the standards are rather fragmented.  If you look at the military (me) you will see that it is even more fragmented, something for the Navy/Marines NMCI is supposed to correct (it's a joke).  

we do NOT have a choice here about what browser we want to use simply due to both support and lobbying issues.

It's not as simple as it might have been.  I would throw my netbsd laptop on the network here, and could get away with it most likely, but I'm not one to lie to the clueless admins that run the noc across the way.

[voidmain]

There certainly are clueless people in the NOCs but I can tell you that the case was the same when I was in (also Military) and I "could" and I "did".  People have superiors, superiours have superiors, doesn't the military still have money saving programs?  Don't be a pussy, it's too easy to say you can't. It's entirely possible that the people making the decisions have had full frontals but don't assume it.  I found that I could go and discuss anything with them at any time and as long as I did it calmly, rationally, and had done my homework they were more than willing to listen.  Even if it takes talking them into pilot programs here and there, have your facts straight and try it.  I can't tell you how rewarding the feeling is when you are succesfull.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Calum]

quote:And I won't get into how much it pisses me off when I see Word documents on government web sites!

did you notice that on the DoJ site, it's all Adobe PDF files? pretty good start...

[Zombie9920]

HaHa, that is hella funny. People using a browser that claims itself as IE can't get onto this site, but I am using the real IE and I can get onto this site with no problem.  

[md2lgyk]

I don't seem to have a problem either.  I'm using Opera 6.01 and just logged on without a problem.

[badkarma]

If you would have visited this site around that time and used IE, you would have been blocked from the site too on fridays, tough the webmaster cancelled the MS Free Friday (kinda catchy I have to admit) because it proved to be too troublesome with all these browser identifying as IE

[Kage]

Once again, you are missing the point Void.  You may consider it being a pussy, but it just DOES NOT WORK.  You have to understand that the specific command I am at, where I am an IT OFFICER, we do not get to dictate the state of our machines.  Yeah, we have a few HPUX and Sun boxes in the back as part of a test LAN, but we cannot hook them up to the NIPRNET, as it is against DISA regulations, and they will drop out the whole building.  There is NO case to getting something different, no matter what you might say.  

The military is too broad to make a sweeping gesture such as yours.

The fact remains it is rather silly to attempt to ban IE users from the site.  Some people really do HAVE to use it.

[badkarma]

quote:Originally posted by Kage:
The fact remains it is rather silly to attempt to ban IE users from the site.  Some people really do HAVE to use it.

The site is called fuckMicrosoft.com ... what'd you expect?  :rolleyes:

[Kage]

You are missing the point also.


Yeah, the point is fuckmicrosoft.com, but the impression I get from reading the "About Us" page is that its more of a design issue.  It seems SILLY to ban people that are using IE.  Hell, so much is talked about "bringing people over from the dark side" for lack of a better term.  Why ban those same people you are trying to convert?  What purpose does that serve?  Not much, other than pissing them off and making the anti-MS movement look like a bunch of egotistical assholes.  (Much like the rep for most nix admins =[)

Anyways, I understand it's lifted, so I dont care anymore.  Now I can troll from work.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kage ]

[badkarma]

It seems that you are missing the point because it was just one day a week (on fridays) purely because the webmaster wanted to make a statement, it's not like all IE users were banned from ever visiting the site    

Oh, and most people who visit this site are either already "converted" (i.e. mac users   ), very much inclined to be "converted" (i.e. they don't come to ask if they should run linux, or buy a mac, they ask how to configure/install it) or are not using an M$ OS. What leaves us are the pro M$ people who are usually idiots with little substance in their arguments as to why they are pro M$

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: BadKarma ]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Kage:
OYeah, we have a few HPUX and Sun boxes in the back as part of a test LAN, but we cannot hook them up to the NIPRNET, as it is against DISA regulations, and they will drop out the whole building.  There is NO case to getting something different, no matter what you might say.  

Where can I get a copy of the DISA regulations?  I would like to read them.  And I would also like to know who and how the regulations are brought about.  Are you telling me they will allow you to hook up a Win* machine to your NIPRNET but not a Sun or HP box?

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Kage:
What purpose does that serve?  Not much, other than pissing them off and making the anti-MS movement look like a bunch of egotistical assholes.  (Much like the rep for most nix admins =[)

Hey, I resemble that remark!  

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Calum:

did you notice that on the DoJ site, it's all Adobe PDF files? pretty good start...

Well, I hate PDF files almost as much as I hate DOC files.  If it ain't an IRS 1040 form their's no reason it can't just be HTML.

[Centurian]

Hey,

I would have posted to this much sooner but I have not been reading this thread recently. My apologies.

Kage,

When I was in the navy way back in the 70's I started out as an e3 and moved up to e5 only to be busted back to e4 for insubbordination then busted again to e3 for fighting. Also I was a plane captain and LSE (Landing Signalman Enlisted). I was very good as an LSE to the point that during bad weather the pilots reguested me as their LSE even though most other LSE's outranked me. They would even go so far as to ask my opinion as to how well they made a particular landing on many occasions.

During my time in the military on 9 different occasions I saw flaws on the system. Each time I went to my immediate supervisor with my suggestion. In all 9 cases I eventually discussed the situation with my Commanding Officer. 8 of those 9 flaws that I found were eventually changed.

Ok so I sucked as a military man. Following orders was/is not my best suite. Still those in command listened to what I had to say and most of the changes I initiated were implemented.

They say millitary intelligence is an oxymoron. I found that not to be true. Those in command are more than willing to make changes if you can show  good and reasonable reasons why those changes should be made.

You as an IT Officer almost certainly will outrank my e3 status when I was in. The higher rank you are the more likely they are to listen to you. I am not saying that your suggestions will happen overnight but when you are qualified and very good at a specific job your superiors will listen to your arguments. They may or may not agree but they will listen. If you honestly believe a change should be made then take the initiative, grab your balls and just do it. If on the other hand you don't believe a change should be made then let it slide.

 

quote:Originally posted by Kage:
Once again, you are missing the point Void.  You may consider it being a pussy, but it just DOES NOT WORK.  You have to understand that the specific command I am at, where I am an IT OFFICER, we do not get to dictate the state of our machines.  Yeah, we have a few HPUX and Sun boxes in the back as part of a test LAN, but we cannot hook them up to the NIPRNET, as it is against DISA regulations, and they will drop out the whole building.  There is NO case to getting something different, no matter what you might say.  

The military is too broad to make a sweeping gesture such as yours.

The fact remains it is rather silly to attempt to ban IE users from the site.  Some people really do HAVE to use it.