US/Iraq

[shuiend]

i think it is a big bunch of bullshit. the US needs to mind its own business. we are all scared of them getting 1 nuke while we have how many thousand or millions? If the US would just stay out of other countries affairs then i dont think we would have this problem. the 9/11 attacks were caused because people were mad that the us meddled in business that was not theirs. When ever the US gets in the way bad things happen to it. i think that we sould go back into isolation and be like fuke off to other countries and let them go about there own business.

[voidmain]

Ok, what affairs have the US meddled in that piss you and the other terrorists off so much?

So you drive a few airplanes into the World Trade center. Yeah, I see your point. All those people who died that day deserved it as they most surely were meddling in other peoples business. I got news for you, 99.999% of those people never heard of bin laden, the terrorists groups he was associated with, or what his motivations were/are.

Now sure, the US has plenty of nukes. When did they last use them and under what circumstances? Have they not acted responsibly with their possesion of these nukes?

What would Saddam do with nukes if he had them? Well, we know what he will do with chemical/biological weapons, even against his own people. And we know that he wishes to control the entire region (and probably beyond) as witnessed by the invasion of Kuwait.

Now I theorize that the first thing Saddam would do with nuclear weapons is to develop about a dozen backpack nukes, hand them over to bin laden and plant his deciples in 12 major US cities with their watches synchronized to all go off at the same time. Hell, might as well plant one in London and several other major western cities. Far fetched? I think not, it's only a hair away from what happened on 9-11, in fact much easier than what happened on 9-11 in many ways. And with Iraq, bin laden (or any other twisted fuck head) can have their nukes.

I personally don't want to wait to see what will happen. I say either Iraq gets rid of Saddam and cleans up their act or they can become the world's leading supplier of glass.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[Stryker]

quote: Hard to do. If the US ever over stepped their bounds, showing that they have gone power hungry, then the rest of the world would realize this and destroy them.  

I can only think of about 3 countries who would be willing to destroy 200 million lives. And they have the power to maybe destroy 3 or so cities. You'd have to be insane to attempt it.

[flap]

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Ok, what affairs have the US meddled in that piss you and the other terrorists off so much?

Good question. Here's my top 3:

1. Chile
2. Vietnam
3. Palestine

Helping to create and then supporting the Taliban throughout the 80s and 90s is also good though.

[Calum]

VoidMain, you say a lot of stuff i agree with, however i think your extrapolations are very wide of the mark. what makes you think Saddam and Bin Laden are in contact or would hand nukes over to each other? the likelihood that they are both muslims? that is the sort of attitude that causes these little fracas' in the first place!

also, you called wild jester a terrorist. that is fucking out of order. sorry for swearing at you VoidMain, i have a lot of respect for you but it is exactly this attitude that makes the rest of the world, rightly or wrongly, suspect of the USA.

USA is very big on seeing terrorists and communists and many other ists that are ready to rise up and threaten society, or democracy or even just to infiltrate our childrens minds. i suppose you are too young (even though you are older than i    ) to remember the draconian Comics Code Authority in the fifties, and for that matter the ridiculous McCarthy scapegoating trials, designed to make the US seem like it was doing something and in the process ruining the careers and lives of many of its best people.

The US is too concerned with its own chest puffing to actually give a shit about things really should be done. the US has forgotten what "justice" means. After the horrible planes disaster last year, i heard a lot of stories about US citizens. many people offensively emailed me multiple copies of emails designed to let me know that the US would not stand for this sort of treatment. forgive me, but if i want to know that i will find out for myself.

One of these emails told the story of an american guy on a plane later in September going on an international flight somewhere on the other side of the world from the US. Another US guy got up in the aisle before the plane took off and asked all the other US citizens to stand up. After a bit of coaxing, another nine did. For the whole of the journey, these 10 Americans would escort anybody who got up out of their seat to wherever they were going, the toilet, whatever. The email claimed that this made the atmosphere in the plane more relaxing.

This story made me very angry and epitomises the problem. Yes i agree that the US has rarely used its nukes in a stupid way, especially compared with some other nations. Yes i agree that Iraq could do some nasty things with nukes. This is no reason for America to assume the moral high ground. This "America as the world's guardian" does not work unless we assume that we can trust america implicitly. and we cannot. we do not agree with many of its opinions, however it has the most powerful army and the loudest politicians, so what can you do?

the only reason that america thinks it should be the policeman of the world is because it had its nukes first. This is unacceptable.

As i say, no offence to VoidMain, but that is the reality as i see it.

Go on, call me a terrorist, it will only weaken your argument in my opinion.

[voidmain]

I'm not good at reading minds. Can you explain to me in a little more detail about the three items you list? And I'm not the greatest in World affairs, this is the first I've heard that the US is responsible for the existence of the Taliban and provided support for the Taliban. Hmm, tell me more.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[voidmain]

Calum, I would like nothing better than to walk around in a bubble, only being concerned with what happens inside the US. For the most part, that is how the lives of most Americans go. So when 9-11 happened 99% of American's say "why", "how", "I've got nothing against anybody, why do people hate us so much".  When you say "Americans" you really don't *mean* Americans.  And I just used bin laden as an example.  Are you going to now tell me that Iraq never sponsored terrorist organizations and never had terrorist training camps within their borders?  I think a little more research needs to be done.

[KernelPanic]

This is exactly why I said we shouldnt engage in political discussion....

1) Lesson: Always listen to me  

[flap]

The U.S. in 1979 started funding the religious schools that produced the fundamentalists who went on to comprise the Taliban. Many Al-Qaeda members were actually trained by the US - on US soil.

Read this

 

quote:The al-Qaeda training camps are kindergartens compared with the world's leading university of terrorism at Fort Benning in Georgia. Known until recently as the School of the Americas, its graduates include almost half the cabinet ministers of the genocidal regimes in Guatemala, two thirds of the El Salvadorean army officers who committed, according to the United Nations, the worst atrocities of that country's civil war, and the head of Pinochet's secret police, who ran Chile's concentration camps.

Go U.S.A!

[voidmain]

I tried like hell to stay out of this thread and I wish like hell politics would stay out of these forums because it detracts from my main concern of eradicating M$.  But you have drawn me into it.

So I suppose what would make you happy is if someone were to invade your country, and you were to ask for help from the US then the US should stand idly by?  I tell you, it would suit me just fine if we didn't have to help other countries in need and have the piece of mind to know that other countries wouldn't fuck with the U.S. You know, just build a giant steel bubble that doesn't allow anything in or out. Yeah, sounds like a perfect solution to me.  Well sorry, it isn't that easy. People ask for help you help. If security is threatened you have to do something about it.

It's easy to say "stop meddling in other people's business" until you need help yourself. And it's easy to think that people aren't deranged enough to fly an airplane into a building targeting civilians that have absolutely no clue as to why they are being murdered. When the US went in and helped Kuwait out, did they target Iraqi civilians? If I remember correctly (since I was there my memory is pretty good) great pains were taken to minimize civilian casualties.

At least one guy has his head on straight, a clip from the same web site:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12168848&method=full&siteid=50143

[Bazoukas]

Osama I believe got pissed of because US troops set foot on the holly grounds or whatever.

  If the US troops wouldnt set foot, Osama would find something else to be pissed about.

 And just think about this. Russia invaded Afghanistan and they leveled the whole place down.

 Did you know that the Afganis did not always live on the desert under piss poorcamping  tents?

 Did you know that before the Russias stormed in, they had a life? Like Fashion shows, theater, music, things that we Western people still  have.

  If the US refused help when the Afganis asked then it would be the reverse "Ohhhh look at those Big Bad Americanos. They dont help anybody."


  And on top of that I would like to add, I am sick and tired of people saying about Vietnam. Have we forgot about Russia's "Vietnam"? Have we forgoten why the whole country went to chaos?  Because of the Russian invasion. Thats why.


   At least US now is helping Vietnam economicaly (big time)and they have good releationships. Vietnam Vets are visiting Vietnam and they meet with men that fought face to face.

 Did Russia did any of this?

 I am not trying to downplay the Russian people. As far as I am concerned Russians deserve alot of respect from what they had to put up with during WWII, when they had to fight with the butcher politics of Stalin and the same time they had to fight the Nazis.

    I just brought this as an example.


 I promise to shutup now since teh Force of the Penguin loves teh harmony  

 PS: This is just talk. I hope no one will get offended.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]

[shuiend]

i am not a terrorist just so you know. i do know how to make some nasty things that could be considered terrorism but i dont. I dont personally find hurting (physically) people fun. As i would never intintanally kill someone unless i was forced to. i injoy misslanice things of wrong doing but nothing that i would consider terrorism. ok now back to the subject. All you here in the news now is what or how america is going to do something. How often is canada in the news going to do airstrikes against other countries. Never. I see the fighting in the middle east something that has always been there. Ever since the ottoman (i had byzentine but that was before) empire broke up there has been fighting over land and religion and such. i accept those and i think it is going to stay that way. When america interferes it usally just gets in the way. and makes diffrent people hate us more. i am american and i believe in most things this country stands for. i do not like how they conduct there foriegn pollicy. i believe that should change. and for the whole we are being invaded argument i would not quikly side with you if you ask. i would personally check it out and see what has been happening. maybe your country had been oppersing the other or something like that, then i might go with the other country. and i do think iraq with a nuke is a bad idea but what makes america the one country that gets to control them. since we are the ones that always go in and try to be the good people that makes people hate us. i belive a silent removal of suddam would be much better then an all out attack. lets see yah we are being bomb by america  do we launch a nuke at them or suddam is silently taken out of power and we have to large dispute over it. that is the angle i am coming at. some intervention is nessaary but not as much as america does
 also thanks calum for defending me and saying i am not a terrorist cause i aint. (besides maybe what they do in fight club but instead of finacial buildings do redmond washington)

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: wild_jester / BOB ]

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: wild_jester / BOB ]

[lazygamer]

Much thanks to you Flap. I keep forgetting teh truth I can only learn on the internet. You know you start to despise the US and realize they(not the citizens) are the badguys, but you slowly become accepting of them. Problem is, some of the anti-US info on the internet will be false, how do we know what to believe?

Instead of just labeling US actions as "securing resources", such a document would suggest US as truly a monster(world domination, as this article suggests). I thought this shit only happened on X-files.  

Fuck, 40 countries is a little high I think.

PS:I would be totally sticking up for the US right now if I hadn't been taught otherwise by some people I've argued with before on the net.

[Stryker]

woh hold on, not washington. i live just north of seattle. But i have 2 family members that work in microsoft (they both hate the software, dont support it in any way other than being the receptionist for some high level dude, and cleaning up after lunch) they are innocent. You'd be insane to ask anyone to attack microsoft. sure they are wrong, but not enough to deserve death. what's wrong with you?

[shuiend]

stryker did you read my comment on that? have you seen fight club? i would do it in the middle of the night and make sure that no one was in the buildings of microsoft that would be blown up. i have no intentions of killing people that way. i personally think it is wrong. But that would be the ultimate way of microsoft eradication