Author Topic: Hypothetical Question about MS  (Read 713 times)

Bazoukas

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« on: 8 July 2002, 13:49 »
Here os the premise. Read it and then read the two question below.
 
Lets just say,.....lets just dare to say.....that MS finaly gets down and builds an OS that rivals in security and performance the Unix/Linux OSs.
  Viruses fear Windows, hackers are scratching their heads in disbelief because they dont realy know how to hack Servers running windows, and the thing runs like a race horse.
  Spyware is a thing of the past as activation key is. Price to buy MS products drops down severly (dirt cheap) and ohhhh yes WIndows can recognize formats from the X family.

  And when they find something wrong with their products, they act with extreme speed and with results that realy solve the problem.
 
1)  With all that said IF windows was an open source too, would you use  MS the way you use Unix or Linux?

2) WIth all that said if windows was still a closed source, would you use MS the way you use Unix or Linux?
Yeah

lazygamer

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #1 on: 8 July 2002, 14:08 »
Excellent question!

1)Hell yeah!
2)Hell yeah!

MS would take away our .50BMG ammo stocks and replace them with paintballs if they did that! As it stands now, Wind0ze sucking in so many ways is the only damn thing Linux has to fight it and defeat it. If they take away all the reasons, the Linux veterans would only still be at it out of contempt for Microsoft and corporations.

Linux movement would only have "look at MS's past record", "With Bill and friends at the helm, how can you trust them?" and "The l33t und3rgr0und h4x0rs can always produce stuff to rival that of those corporations".

The proof is in the pudding(a wind0ze that rocks the house), and MS doing this would mean a serious shift in alignment and attitude. So maybe they go from chaotic evil to lawful evil?  ;)

Well I've been thinking all along(not long after  I got here) that if MS wants to win, all they have to do is take away reasons to spout to n00bs/wind0ze fans why their OS sucks.

I'd like to see our Linux priests convert windows fans by spouting anti-corporate or MS past history stuff at them. It's hard enough to unbrainwash them as it is!

Now why the fuck this is not on Bill's mind is beyond me. Chances are it will never happen, who knows maybe Billy thought of it already. I guess it just goes against Bill's ego and large evil oppressive empire mentality. I mean in a way it would be "If you can't beat em, join em". That would mean MS loses metaphorically(although wins BIG in the marketplace), which is a no-no.
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voidmain

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #2 on: 8 July 2002, 22:13 »
1) No.  It's still brain dead windows.
2) No.  It's still brain dead windows.

And I don't believe I would even be interested in seeing all that VB source code.
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Chooco

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #3 on: 9 July 2002, 10:35 »
1. YES!
2. YES!

lazygamer

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #4 on: 9 July 2002, 12:07 »
To make Wind0ze like this, the source code would have to be awesome. It would no longer be brain dead Wind0ze. If these hypothetical statements were to count as 100% true, then Wind0ze would have to be vastly overhauled.
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preacher

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #5 on: 9 July 2002, 13:01 »
This discussion reminds me of a very long one I had with several of my linux buddies. Our discussion didnt have to do with MS, but with Apple and Macs. I was arguing that MacOS X combined nix and an easy to use interface, however one thing I could just not get over was the fact that I like the ideas behind open source software. Even if Windows was super cheap, secure, easy to use, and stable, i would still prefer linux because rather than having the best interests of a large company in mind, it has the interests of the end users in mind and the open source model proves it. Even if MS made their product cheap, nothing would prevent them from raising the price as high as they see fit.
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Calum

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #6 on: 10 July 2002, 00:54 »
right, the question here is simple: what makes a windows a windows?

is windows nt the real windows because it's what m$ peddles now? or is win9x the real windows because it was there before nt? is mswindows (i mean the GUI/program for DOS) the real windows because it was the first windows? how do you think the source code compares between the different versions?
also, is windows the kernel, the GUI or the whole system? mswindows was originally a GUI program. it didn't have a kernel. NT and win9x have different kernels (so we are told) but perhaps the apps and tools are the same, but compiled for the right kernel (you're not telling me they rewrote notepad, write and pbrush just for NT for example). So the only code that is common to all three versions of windows is apps such as notepad, mspaint and so on.
even diary, clock, mail, media programs included with the system have been overhauled, scrapped or rewritten a number of times, so what is windows really?

Also, you throw in the open source thing. This is completely loaded. 'Open source' is an even worse term than 'free software' was. So they open the source, so what? we get to read the source! nobody has the right to modify and redistribute it, so what's the difference? the only difference is that everybody can see the holes in the security, and the bloating spyware. They cannot change any of it without a GPL like licence agreement and that will not come from Microsoft. They will use 'open source' in many contexts in the coming years you can bet, but it will never mean what it was intended to mean. Microsoft are more interested in besmirching the reputation of open source and making people distrustful of it than they are in actually releasing true open source code.

Due to M$'s security by obscurity model, the open source but nobody can change it model would just make windows even more insecure than it already is, if you can believe that, since the holes would be there for all to see, but for nobody to fix.

You throw in the thing about Microsoft fixing holes and bugs promptly, but what does that mean? it's like the police needing 'reasonable suspicion' to get a warrant to raid somebody's house for drugs! the term "promptly" or whatever word you actually used is meaningless. Say some huge hole existed. 5000 script kiddies see it (in the open source code) write an exploit program, or hack into people's boxes, so maybe six or seven hours later, possibly longer depending on working hours, holidays and so on, somebody notices, and calls Microsoft up. Their staff (a hundred people? how many? how many people can be spared to drop work they are already busy on for such an effort?) works on it during office hours only, after getting given the message by whoever took the complaint, and possibly this person took an hour or two to pass on the message due to having to finish the shift, or whatever, or maybe the message gets passed in an email that doesn't get opened immediately. You know what companies are like, if employees can pass the buck they often will.

So then the patch gets released, and how long did it take? longer than if some guy spotted the hole in the first place, fixed it and sent it in to the project coordinator all in one hit. People doing something for the love of it, not the money, do a better job. Capitalists find this abhorrent and difficult to digest, preferring to believe for their own peace of mind that people who are being paid do a better job than those who are not.

Now, let's say for argument's sake that 'open source' means a windows totally under the GPL, though that will never happen unless it is a windows imitator, like FreeDOS imitates MSDOS, or linux imitates minix (that's a bad example actually). So anyway, if a GPLd windows came out, the code would be fucking terrible! to the point where people would descend on it like vultures, rewriting the whole thing! now there are two ways this could go (three actually but we'll get to that) so:

1. a: Microsoft release windows as GPL software, but they coordinate the code that gets submitted for the next release, as we assume they have decided to turn everything around quickly, development goes fast, but Microsoft get the final control over what goes into the system. The system never gets any better as a result despite people's best efforts and quickly people stop submitting code.
1. b: Microsoft release windows as GPL software, people get fed up that Microsoft are still coordinating the effort and multiple patched versions of windows start flying about, each one optimised for different purposes (think netBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD, but a lot more warped) people go over M$'s heads and very soon no windows is really compatible with any other windows. Either that or you need several versions of windows to really perform several tasks to any degree of efficiency.

2: Microsoft release windows as GPL and allow an independent coordinator to assume control. This will never happen. I dare anybody to tell me why M$ would ever do this.

In the end i have this to say: windows NT is a clone of win9x, designed to do the same thing, but more stable, written from scratch. win9x in turn is based on mswindows, which, as a full operating system, was simply DOS running a GUI. DOS, in its own turn, is a simplified, bastardised imitation of unix, with no attempt made to plan for the future regarding networking, scaling, permissions, data storage, basically averything that has been 'improved' since the days of DOS has been done with a quick and dirty hack, because there was literally no elbow room in the code to do it properly.

Now that we have reverse geneticised DOS, i put it to you that if windows was GPLd, and if all people's best changes were put into practice, you could go and check a year or two later and find that in fact, windows was now unix.
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voidmain

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #7 on: 10 July 2002, 01:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by lazygamer:
To make Wind0ze like this, the source code would have to be awesome. It would no longer be brain dead Wind0ze. If these hypothetical statements were to count as 100% true, then Wind0ze would have to be vastly overhauled.


Yes, it would have to be *NIX in the end for me to use it. Windows is nothing but a pretty GUI on a brain dead OS. Opening the source and making it affordable doesn't make the OS any better.  I will always prefer a *NIX like OS.  They would also have to include many more things with the OS that most *NIX OSs include. A non-brain-dead shell with powerful scripting capabilities (preferably more than one). A compiler along with many other development tools. Security. No contact with big brother. No advertising or marketing.  That last one is what M$ was built on and will never go away.

If they did the above they would end up with either *NIX or OSX.  Now I've been using *NIX for the last 15 years. Why would I want to use Micronux or Windnix?  I already have many great versions of that for free.  As far as I am concerned, M$ is already dead. But that's just me, and I know that I am in the minority hoping someday to be in the majority (again).

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

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foobar

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #8 on: 10 July 2002, 01:42 »
Damn right void, damn right ...
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cahult

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #9 on: 10 July 2002, 04:58 »
Who made Win NT in the first place? I
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Bazoukas

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #10 on: 10 July 2002, 05:39 »
nice replies guys.

  Oh and yeah I sould have been more clear when i said about Open Source. I ment that anybody could change it with out MS being all over their ass with legal issues.

  IF MS was to do that 180 degree turn, do you believe it would end up like a company as Red Hat?
Yeah

voidmain

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #11 on: 10 July 2002, 05:46 »
If you could change it without M$ being all over your ass, you would "end up with RedHat", so what would be the point? Oh, you might have another choice for a GUI (which is all Windows really is), but it's not necessary.
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Bazoukas

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Hypothetical Question about MS
« Reply #12 on: 10 July 2002, 06:18 »
yeah your right about that.
 If M$ was to do that 180 degree change it would turn out to be another Linux version.
Yeah