Whats with this protesting European Patenting Stuff?

[Doctor V]

If protesting is not what we should to to stop this BS, then how should we?  By just shutting up and voting like you seem to think?  I really wish that would work, however, the elected politicians often do not know what the public wants, and really don't understand the issues they vote on.  Industry representatives a.k.a. lobbists, the guys who might benefit from these patents and other crazy laws, meet with them and give them their side of the story and thats usually all they ever hear.  The have to meet with these lobbists cause the industry finances their campaign.  Now, if the politician sees on the news that thousands of people are on the streets and up in flames over this, it might, just might make them think twice before following with what is fed to the by the lobbists.

Protesting gets things done, usually they arn't violent, and even republicans protest sometimes.

[billy_gates]

quote:Originally posted by Doctor V: Gentoo Lunatic:

Protesting gets things done, usually they arn't violent, and even republicans protest sometimes.

Since most protests are small... I guess one could assume they don't get violent.  But the ones big enough to change people't mind about not making more money have a lot of people.  And a lot of people in one area has a couple of problems.  They can block traffic of some sort.  They all do not listen to the leader of the protest (there are just too many) and eventually cops come and taunt them.  and a very few of the people who do not truly believe in their cause can screw everything up very badly, by becoming violent.
And yes, republicans do protest sometimes.


You do make a good point.  But I truly think that if your elected representatives don't represent you.  Be more careful when you elect them.  And then of course there is always the boycott type of thing (which is a more extreme version of the voting with your wallet thing)  Just spread the word around europe not to purchase software covered under the patents law.  Then if companies start seeing a loss in sales they WILL get rid of it.

[suselinux]

The reason that this thread started is that we are fighting stereo types here.

The conservatives think that all liberals are hippies with no wealth, or wit. the surfs of modern america, they only belive in social development because they know that they will get something out of it because they are liberals and they must be poor.

The Liberals think that all conservatives are rich greedy people who only got were they are because they used the money passed down from the last generation.  the only reason Consrvatives believe in corperate rights is because they are either share holders or owners of businesses who will gain something from it.

And they both believe that there can not be a common ground.

I am a Canadian Conservative, a member of the party no less.  I believe that for the most part unions are a bad thing, but I also believe that obtuse patents based on the most miniscule of ideas is a bad thing.

Unlike Jeff my family dosen't drive british SUV's
my dad owned a triumph in the seventies and always had problems with the eletrical, so I grew up always hearing British cars bad electrics.

no offence Calum, Zardoz, anyone else

instaed My parents both drive newer Mazdas my mom a miata, my dad a truck some pick up thingy.

I had to buy myself a car so I own a Tercel, my parents bought my little brother a Cavalier.

we live the one of the most expensive areas in canada, The North shore of BC being the most expensive and whistler and crap.

My dad owns an industrial tooling company and is a partner an a plastics forming and fabricating company

so in an akward way im trying to say im no hippie, trying without bosting too much

I believe that protest is a good thing, you can change the world two ways, loud and bold yelling at the castle wall, or whispering  many samll changes inside the castle.

YOU CAN NOT VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET

You, the single consumer mean nothing, you, the many consumers mean nothing, you, all of the consumers still mean nothing!............at least not to the RIAA

people stop buying CD's and start downloading because music is over priced and crappy, and comes with too many inhibitting copywrongs (sound related?)

so after we have voted against the RIAA with our wallets, they changed, because we voted and thats it right? Wrong Asshole!  instead an American association leavies a tax on CDR's in the US AND Motherfucking Canada.

well we won the motherfucking battle there now didn't we, get any subpoenas in the mail latley?


voting with your wallet is a myth! two hundred thousand people not buying a mac is nothing compared to 50 thousand standing together screaming bloody murder in front of Apple HQ...

Apple is just an example, just came to mind for some reason. they should not be protested against.

OK so Liberal Protestors are not hippies, and conservative southern californian mac owners are not green eyed, empty headed, falsley educated, money hording, arogant....... prove it Jeff

[Doctor V]

Protesting can also get the voters who elect these politicians to look into issues they would otherwise have never heard about.  You ask average joe on the street what he thinks of software and business model patenting and he'll probably be very confused.  He sees thousands protesting against it and he might think twice next time its his turn to vote.

Boycotting to stop software patents simply won't work.

Here's how a boycott works:

Corp A and corp B both sell product X.  Corp A goes evil.  Stop buying from corp A and buy from corp B instead.  Corp A loses money and changes their ways.

Here's our problem:

Corp A and corp B both sell product X.  Corp A patents product X.  Corp B is sued, and goes out of business cause its now illegal for anyone but corp A to sell product B.  Corp A can do whatever evil they want cause  people either really want or outright need product X and will never be able to get it from anyone else.  They'd like to boycott, but that would mean giving up product X completely, which might not be possible.

Now in this case we arn't even talking about a certian product, its  going to be much more far reaching, it might be a way of selling things, or a couple lines of code that thousands of applications use.  It could be just about anything.  Yes, under this system Mcdonalds could have patented fast food, Dominoes could have patented pizza delivery, or even the idea of food delivery all together.  Point is, boycotting is meaningless here.  Its either stopped before it starts or we all suffer.

[billy_gates]

suselinux:
My step dad had a triumph when he was growig up too.  It had tons of little problems like that.  And British cars do classicly have electrical problems.  But the electrical system in the Rover is german... Bosch.  We got ours the first year BWM owned Rover.
Just a funny coincidence I thought.
Although, your Mazda's are by no means Japanese.  Ford has completely transformed them.  They share almost all of the same parts.  And are made in the US.  (not that you wanted them to be japanese or anything, just saying)


 

quote:voting with your wallet is a myth! two hundred thousand people not buying a mac is nothing compared to 50 thousand standing together screaming bloody murder in front of Apple HQ...

Apple is just an example, just came to mind for some reason. they should not be protested against.

Correct.  But 50,000 not buying a Mac will be even bigger.  Apple can't afford to lose 50,000 customers.  This will cause them to change.  Cause them to fix the reason why you are not purchasing their product.  I don't see how 50,000 people outside of apple HQ with signs saying "bad Apple," but they still have brand new powerbooks strapped to their shoulders would do anything.  In fact Apple would be getting free publicity.  The news would be all over it, and depending on the channel would tell it from different perspectives.  Its like those people who didn't want to pay for .Mac.  They signed a petition but still payed.  It doesn't work that way.  If a company is not to make money by doing what they are doing they will change.  Because the sole purpose of a business is to make money... do you not agree?


Doctor V:
 

quote:Corp A and corp B both sell product X. Corp A patents product X. Corp B is sued, and goes out of business cause its now illegal for anyone but corp A to sell product B. Corp A can do whatever evil they want cause people either really want or outright need product X and will never be able to get it from anyone else. They'd like to boycott, but that would mean giving up product X completely, which might not be possible.

if you really believe in your cause you will stop using product X.  During the civil rights movement.  One of the first things they did was boycott the bus system.  There was no corp b bus system.  Only one.  They stopped using it.  It was a huge pain.  They had to walk or bum rides from people.  But they did it.  And it will take at least 6 months for corp b to get sued out of existance.  So you have some time.

I don't think there is a way to prove my points any further.
Businesses are created for one purpose... to make money.   If people stop buying their product, the company will lose money.  If there is a way for the company to remedy this, and make it so people will buy their product they will.  There is only one exception.  And that is if the company KNOWS, without a doubt, that holding onto whatever they have will in the future turn major profits.  But they can't hold out forever.
I guarantee that if 100 million people stopped buying and using the Windows OS and told MS its because of their monopolistic behavior.  That after several years of losing 100 million customers.  They would fold and change their ways.  Because making some money is better than making none and just closing your doors.

 

quote:Now in this case we arn't even talking about a certian product, its going to be much more far reaching, it might be a way of selling things, or a couple lines of code that thousands of applications use. It could be just about anything. Yes, under this system Mcdonalds could have patented fast food, Dominoes could have patented pizza delivery, or even the idea of food delivery all together. Point is, boycotting is meaningless here. Its either stopped before it starts or we all suffer.

Your right... boycotting is not the best way to get this patent thing not done.  But if worst comes to worst and it does get put into effect.  I am sure that if you stopped buying stuff from the company that was enforcing their patents and sueing others, and you told them that was why.. with a letter of some sort.  You told them why you were not buying from them that they would stop.  It would take a long time.  They would have to think that you were never going to buy from them ever again.  But eventually they would go out of business (from losing money) or give in.

Now if on the other hand 100 million people protest their Windows OS but still buy it.  They will get negative publicity.  But because of their monopoly the rest of the people would still buy the product, and even the protestors would buy the prodcut, cus according to suse they couldn't live without it.  MS would not change.  They have no reason too.  They are still rakin in the Doh.

I think that is the best way I can explain it.  The whole principle of voting with your wallet is based on the 100% absolute fact that all companies are designed to make money, and all patents, and patent systems are designed to make money.  Remove the money, and they give in.  Change their ways.  They won't make as much money now.  But its better than making no money.

[ September 06, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]

[Doctor V]

:rolleyes:  

 

quote:
if you really believe in your cause you will stop using product X. During the civil rights movement. One of the first things they did was boycott the bus system. There was no corp b bus system. Only one. They stopped using it. It was a huge pain. They had to walk or bum rides from people. But they did it. And it will take at least 6 months for corp b to get sued out of existance. So you have some time.

I don't think there is a way to prove my points any further.

Look at my post again and see that I said that 'product X' could be something that people really want or outright need.  Your response adresses the former, but completely misses the latter the latter.  Under this system something which people are dependant on could be patented.

   :mad:  

You really do not understand this issue at all do you.  From the example above, maybe company A doesn't even sell product X, they simple own the patent for it and want to get a cut from every purchase.  How does a boycott help then?  If you don't buy the product, company A loses nothing.  Its possible, its happened already to ebay.  Also a fact that is already stated above.

Its not a single company that sells a single product, but a system of gaining quick and easy market domination.  Even if we could boycott one company into giving up their patent, there would be hundreds no probably thousands more, the boycotts would never end, and technical advancement, new business and competition would be slowed down to a near halt.  Furthermore the boycotted company would likely not give up the patent, instead they would just sell it.  Then we start over.

I'd rather just protest, that actually might do something.

There is a time and place for boycotting, times when it works and works well, but also there are times when it is not appropriate.

   V  

[billy_gates]

quote:Originally posted by Doctor V: Gentoo Lunatic:
  :rolleyes:    

 

Look at my post again and see that I said that 'product X' could be something that people really want or outright need.  Your response adresses the former, but completely misses the latter the latter.  Under this system something which people are dependant on could be patented.

     :mad:    

You really do not understand this issue at all do you.  From the example above, maybe company A doesn't even sell product X, they simple own the patent for it and want to get a cut from every purchase.  How does a boycott help then?  If you don't buy the product, company A loses nothing.  Its possible, its happened already to ebay.  Also a fact that is already stated above.

Its not a single company that sells a single product, but a system of gaining quick and easy market domination.  Even if we could boycott one company into giving up their patent, there would be hundreds no probably thousands more, the boycotts would never end, and technical advancement, new business and competition would be slowed down to a near halt.  Furthermore the boycotted company would likely not give up the patent, instead they would just sell it.  Then we start over.

I'd rather just protest, that actually might do something.

There is a time and place for boycotting, times when it works and works well, but also there are times when it is not appropriate.

       V      

as I said... this is not the best issue for a boycot.  But by your example.  If Comp A has a patent on product X.  And 3 people sell product X by paying Comp a.  Then if you stop buying that product Comp A will lose money.  And if they lose enough they will stop enforcing their patent.  You have to tell them that the patent is the reason people aren't buying.  Sure you may eliminate 3 other almost innocent companies too.  But remember they were participating in the patent system too.

Also, I do not understand when you said NEED.  There is no piece of software on this earth that you NEED to not die.  Maybe its your main source of income.  But there are millions of people who live without any income.  You do not have a NEED for software.  You just don't want this boycott to vastly affect your life.  Its going to have to if your really serious about your cause.

Have any of you people ever considered that if this does get passed... its because of what the majority wanted?  The liberals being the majority.  I don't see how you can very easily lose.  I mean how corrupt could the people you punt into office over there actually be?  I mean they are politicians (making them automatically liars) but they can't be as bad as the US Politicians.

[ September 06, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]

[Stryker]

quote:Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:

as I said... this is not the best issue for a boycot.  But by your example.  If Comp A has a patent on product X.  And 3 people sell product X by paying Comp a.  Then if you stop buying that product Comp A will lose money.  And if they lose enough they will stop enforcing their patent.  

why would they?

 

quote:
You have to tell them that the patent is the reason people aren't buying.

why?

 

quote:
Sure you may eliminate 3 other almost innocent companies too.  But remember they were participating in the patent system too.

they are forced to participate, they shouldn't get eliminated.

 

quote:
Also, I do not understand when you said NEED.  There is no piece of software on this earth that you NEED to not die.

We dont need a word processor. We dont need calculator programs. We dont need CADing software. We dont need bank managers or credit card processors. yep... who needs software?

 

quote:
Maybe its your main source of income.  But there are millions of people who live without any income.

lots of people die with no income.

 

quote:
You do not have a NEED for software.

sure we do.

 

quote:
You just don't want this boycott to vastly affect your life.  Its going to have to if your really serious about your cause.

isn't the whole point to have things stay how they are now, as far as patents? the idea is to not have it change our lives.

 

quote:
Have any of you people ever considered that if this does get passed... its because of what the majority wanted?

nope. not once. people get lied to and tricked into voting one way, others dont understand so they just vote randomly or by what their friend's did.

[billy_gates]

Now I think Stryker is just trying to make this go on and on

 

quote:why would they?

cus if they don't stop enforcing the patents then people won't buy the software from the other companies.  Which means they won't get paid licesne fees.  Which means they will go out of business.

 

quote:why?

or else they might not know what the drop in revenue is from. Then they would not know how to fix it.

 

quote:they are forced to participate, they shouldn't get eliminated

They are not forced to participate.  They do not HAVE to sell Product X.  It is not a requirement for them.  They chose to sell product X and pay the patent fees.  They are participating under their own free will.

 

quote:We dont need a word processor. We dont need calculator programs. We dont need CADing software. We dont need bank managers or credit card processors. yep... who needs software?

Exactly.  Cavement didn't have software.  The people that drive trash trucks don't use software.  I don't see why one would need software.  It would just help them a lot... a very lot.

 

quote:lots of people die with no income

lots of people don't.  There are plently of homeless an hour from here, in LA.  They have no income, and they survive.

 

quote:sure we do

You don't NEED software.  You just want it.  Your life does not depend on how much software you can waste away in front of your computer to use.

 

quote:isn't the whole point to have things stay how they are now, as far as patents? the idea is to not have it change our lives.

This hypothetical situation is a last resort

 

quote:nope. not once. people get lied to and tricked into voting one way, others dont understand so they just vote randomly or by what their friend's did.

That is just sad, you really think that low of your fellow human beings.  I don't even think THAT low.  If that is the case however.  Instead of protesting and running around in the streets.  You should make an education type campaing.  Flyers and a web site.  Put flyers in mail boxes and on car windshields.  Try to get connections to BBC (or some other european focused internation) news, to put it on TV.  Try to make a website for everyone to go to.  And negotiate some mention of this on other people's web sites.   Try to make it so a proper vote is cast.

[Stryker]

quote:Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
Now I think Stryker is just trying to make this go on and on

nope, i just disagree with you... are you trying to avoid it?

 

quote:
cus if they don't stop enforcing the patents then people won't buy the software from the other companies. Which means they won't get paid licesne fees. Which means they will go out of business.

if they dont stop enforcing? i thought you said they would stop enforcing it. i was pointing out that they have no reason to. they stop enforcing it... they definately dont get any money. the continue enforcing it when sales are down, they still get a little and dont have to work for it.

 

quote:
or else they might not know what the drop in revenue is from. Then they would not know how to fix it.

ok

 

quote:
They are not forced to participate. They do not HAVE to sell Product X. It is not a requirement for them. They chose to sell product X and pay the patent fees. They are participating under their own free will.

ok, say one makes cars and has done it for years. suddenly some guy comes along and says, "hey! automatic windows were MY idea! give me money!"... then they were forced into it. and this is generally what will get a lot of companies... especially in software.

 

quote:
Exactly. Cavement didn't have software. The people that drive trash trucks don't use software. I don't see why one would need software. It would just help them a lot... a very lot.

it's called progress. and we have grown to depend on it. did your mother teach you how to catch, kill, prepare, and eat food with your bare hands? no? how else would u know how. you're in a society where you needs different things than we did back then. I NEED software, especially when it comes to financial institutions. for being a proud capitalist you sure ur against the need for progress? for software? it's needed.

 

quote:
lots of people don't. There are plently of homeless an hour from here, in LA. They have no income, and they survive.

and they get what little food they have from people that do have an income.

 

quote:
You don't NEED software. You just want it. Your life does not depend on how much software you can waste away in front of your computer to use.

I dont need to own a computer to need software. before i had a computer i relied on software, i couldn't write or cash a check without software. so i wouldn't be able to eat, get clothes, or anything that we NEED.

 

quote:
This hypothetical situation is a last resort

what do u mean by that?

 

quote:
That is just sad, you really think that low of your fellow human beings.  I don't even think THAT low.

you think the majority of people are well educated and know what they are voting for on every little option on there? ok.

 

quote:
If that is the case however.  Instead of protesting and running around in the streets.  You should make an education type campaing.  Flyers and a web site.  Put flyers in mail boxes and on car windshields.  Try to get connections to BBC (or some other european focused internation) news, to put it on TV.  Try to make a website for everyone to go to.  And negotiate some mention of this on other people's web sites.   Try to make it so a proper vote is cast.

I agree. but what's wrong with a protest? it gets people to pay attention, even the public who is intrested when they hear the word "protest".

I just disagreed with you that someone would stop enforcing a pantent simply because they stopped getting money off of it, they wont. I disagree with ur ideas of us not needing software. i think i'm done here though, not really the thread i like. just thought i'd have to bump in and yell at you for ur little "i make money, fuck everyone who doesn't" post. shouldn't have said anything else.

[billy_gates]

I tried to back out of this on page one.  But the people kept coming.

I do understand what you mean by comp a would not stop enforcing it because they would not get money anymore from the patents and die.  But this is of course assuming the comp a is not making software X themselves.  Which is highly unlikely.

I also understand what you mean by one company building a car for years then another one sueing them for power windows.  I highly doubt that such an unethical attack will be allowed.  The court will probably allow the company to stop putting the power windows in the car, or continue if they want to pay the patent fee.

I disagree with you about NEEDing software... but we will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

No... I do not think that the majority of people are educated and know what they are voting for.  But those people are on the other side of the fence.  So I don't even worry about it.

when you said whats wrong with protest.  Just think that there are other poeple like me, who when they see people protesting.  They think down on them for not finding a more civilized (for lack of a better word) way of doing what they want done.

But I am glad this thread is over.  And my first post was FREAKIN harsh.  I was just mad cus I wanted to see some update on the xboxmediaplayer... but no, they're protesting.  Nothing I can bout it though.  Just blowing off steam.  I should of found a more conservative message board to do it in.  Now people here will think less of me.  But whatever, nothing I can do about.  I'm over it.

[Stryker]

quote:Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
Now people here will think less of me.

nope, it all boils down to...


how do u feel about microsoft?

i dont care about ur political opinions, it just pisses me off to see someone who's well off be very self centered and uncaring for those who aren't. just because we dont have money doesn't mean we dont deserve it.

that's it from me.

[Stilly]

I'm glad we can all be friends again          

[Calum]

quote:Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
I tried to back out of this on page one.  But the people kept coming.

no you didn't idiot. like the particular type of US loudmouth that you are you spouted a HUGE pile of OUTRAGEOUS RUBBISH and then told everybody else to shut up because they are wrong.

that is not the same as "backing out".

what u fucktard.
it's a shame the US is run by people like you, and it's an even bigger shame there's so many drones waiting to vote for them and take their places when they get old, crusty and grey.

[Faust]

For example:
Insert name here is a fucking loser!  He screws goats, and his parents are retards that need to be shot blah blah blah typical troll garbage.
Well I'm done with this conversation now and because I dont want to keep the pointless flaming in these forums going I'm backing out now - hey I'm the good guy!  If you keep posting you must *like* flame wars or something.