So let me get this straight. 15 insepctors

[xyle_one]

I have very mixed feelings about my country (usa). It is my home, and I will defend it, but a good percentage of the population are mindless drones with no direction. I don't like the people. They take everything for granted, the fact that their parents can buy them 5 new cars during high school, or that they have food, a home. We have it very good here, I just wish that we could see it. Americans seem very selfish to me. Narrow minded.

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by flap:
I don't stand during a national anthem because I *do* understand how utterly screwed up and dangerous (to use your own apt words) "national pride" is.

As Bertrand Russell put it: "Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons."

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: flap ]

Maybe that's your patriotism but it isn't my patriotism. One small element in my patriotism is the willingness to kill or be killed protecting non-trivial things. But patriotism to me is much more than that as I mentioned in my previous post. A bigger piece of it is having respect for your neighbor and helping/supporting them in times of need. Here's what my Linux dictionary says about it which is the definition I  personally respect:

Code: [Select]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Xyle: Mac Commando:
I have very mixed feelings about my country (usa). It is my home, and I will defend it, but a good percentage of the population are mindless drones with no direction. I don't like the people. They take everything for granted, the fact that their parents can buy them 5 new cars during high school, or that they have food, a home. We have it very good here, I just wish that we could see it. Americans seem very selfish to me. Narrow minded.

Many of them are that way. And it is usually that percentage that don't understand that you find sitting during the anthem. There are a percentage in that category that stand during the anthem but they don't know why they are standing. This is the part that saddens me. I just wish that percentage of America would be able to see just a small percentage of what I have seen. And of course there are many who have been through a lot more than I and I am thankful for and respectful of those people.

[Calum]

quote:Originally posted by lazygamer:
Tis funny how shit works in other countries. I always thought England was one big happy family.    

maybe england is one big happy family (actually it isn't, but we'll get to that in a second) however scotland (which is certainly not, never has been and hopefully never will be, part of england) is not one big happy family. england has obliterated our population, and it was only a couple of hundred years ago. this is the sole reason why there are twelve times as many english than there are scots. the ancestors of many canadians and australians (might i point out that both of those countries are still part of the 'commonwealth') were scots who had no choice but to leave their country or be killed or starve because of england. i might add, most scots who were forced out of their homes did die. the few who made it abroad were most likely the lucky ones, even though they had to work hard to get any sort of living out of the new, unfamiliar and often hostile lands.

now, as to england being one big happy family, they should be one, shouldn't they? after all, they are getting money from selling scotland's oil (yes, the english helpfully sell our oil for us), their economy profits from scotland's various industries (such as tourism and scotland's various high quality exports) and their overpopulation problem is eased somewhat by the fact that they can go and buy property cheaply in scotland without having to worry about passports or anything of that sort.The english despite all this, do not seem to have a very happy country. many english people don't even admit to being english at all. most of the people in the northern half of england like to distance themselves from the south for many reasons, the welsh maintain they are not english even though they don't want independence on the whole, and even the cornish claim they are not part of england (which is justified i suppose).

It seems that many english people are ashamed of their englishness, and in my opinion rightly so. England, sadly, is one nation i could not be proud of if i came from there. Their country has been responsible for too much injustice and hurt that it has never repented for. Unlike many other countries who have commited atrocities, england has never attempted to make amends, and it still retains the air of aloofness that makes it think it is somehow better than the rest of europe and by extension the rest of the world.

Again, nothing against the english personally, just i think their nation and government have a lot to answer for, and also i like to say these things since awareness brings change and since i think many international readers may not be as aware of the history of 'britain' as perhaps i am.

[KernelPanic]

I have alot of respect for my country, but I also have equal amounts of disrespect for my country. I am not overly patriotic, but most brits tend not to be. I try not to do it, but I still feel that sense of superiority because i'm britsih. It is ridiculous though, because most of this comes from the empire, which i dont agree with , but also never experienced it. I do like the contributions we have made to scince and technology. Unfortunately we don't do much of this anymore due to various things, including beurocracy but mostly the ease of finding capital elsewhere like america and thee difficulty of finding it here. I suppose venture capitalist have reasons to be reserved lately due to the current political and ecomomic climate, but after that is over I hope britain starts to live up to its reputation that we pompously pride ourselves on.
I dont think that patritism and jingoism is wrong, but unfortunately some people let this cloud the reality of their nation (not you void main).
I am very glad that the government has forced British history onto the national curriculum, now at least people can make a fair jusgement of their country.
I would never join the British army, firstly because I dont like the idea of death. But secondly because I have looked at my country and realised that I would not like to sign myself up to do the will of governments that I generally don't like.

Also, I will probably change my views in a few years time. I am only 16. I have much to be corrupted in me yet....

[KernelPanic]

quote:Originally posted by Calum:


maybe england is one big happy family (actually it isn't, but we'll get to that in a second) however scotland (which is certainly not, never has been and hopefully never will be, part of england) is not one big happy family. england has obliterated our population, and it was only a couple of hundred years ago. this is the sole reason why there are twelve times as many english than there are scots. the ancestors of many canadians and australians (might i point out that both of those countries are still part of the 'commonwealth') were scots who had no choice but to leave their country or be killed or starve because of england. i might add, most scots who were forced out of their homes did die. the few who made it abroad were most likely the lucky ones, even though they had to work hard to get any sort of living out of the new, unfamiliar and often hostile lands.

now, as to england being one big happy family, they should be one, shouldn't they? after all, they are getting money from selling scotland's oil (yes, the english helpfully sell our oil for us), their economy profits from scotland's various industries (such as tourism and scotland's various high quality exports) and their overpopulation problem is eased somewhat by the fact that they can go and buy property cheaply in scotland without having to worry about passports or anything of that sort.The english despite all this, do not seem to have a very happy country. many english people don't even admit to being english at all. most of the people in the northern half of england like to distance themselves from the south for many reasons, the welsh maintain they are not english even though they don't want independence on the whole, and even the cornish claim they are not part of england (which is justified i suppose).

It seems that many english people are ashamed of their englishness, and in my opinion rightly so. England, sadly, is one nation i could not be proud of if i came from there. Their country has been responsible for too much injustice and hurt that it has never repented for. Unlike many other countries who have commited atrocities, england has never attempted to make amends, and it still retains the air of aloofness that makes it think it is somehow better than the rest of europe and by extension the rest of the world.

Again, nothing against the english personally, just i think their nation and government have a lot to answer for, and also i like to say these things since awareness brings change and since i think many international readers may not be as aware of the history of 'britain' as perhaps i am.

Agreed Calum, pretty much 100%.

 This is a cool thread actually, it gives you a real view of the various countries. We are all opinionated of courese but it is still the realest thing you can hear.

EDIT: This isn't actually the thread I was thinking of, but some interesting things have been said in this thread about our respective countries.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Tux ]

[voidmain]

And I don't want to come off as if I think my country has never done anything shameful. Slavery for instance was not something to be proud of. I am proud though that it was recognized at some point and things were/are being done to try and correct the wrongs. One thing you can't do, you can't go back and undoe what was done so the effects of this period are still huge even today in my country. Luckily things have seemed to be steadily improving since that period and maybe even one day it will be nothing more than a bad memory.

[Calum]

exactly.
your country tries to learn from its mistakes, and it was also founded by idealists, which are both favourable things to me. even if america has been forced to shun the tired and hungry, even if its original ideals have been smothered in red tape, and even if it has made a few wrong turns, it still tries its best, and that is much much better than a country which is founded on arrogance and selfishness and which refuses in the face of adversity to change to any other way of being.

Tux, i am pleasantly surprised that you agree with me (well not that surprised actually). I hope i don't offend you by saying this but i think it points out an example of something i said earlier. Your signature says you are from 'Up North, UK' well, might i point out that from the impression i get, your location is actually closer to the southern tip of england than the northern tip. There could be two reasons for this little psychological slip that many people in the north of england tend to make. the first is, perhaps by thinking of themselves as 'north', they think of themselves as further form the 'south' than they really are. The second is a little more enfuriating, it scould mean that scotland simply does not count to many english people, or that it is perceived as some small northern county of england, in which case, yorkshire, lancashire et c are both 'Up North, UK'.

again, no personal slant, tux, i do not mean to offend you but i couldn't resist commenting.

edit - brings to mind a Glasgow band (who are from the south of scotland in my book!) called 'Teenage Fanclub' whose fifth lp was called 'Songs from Northern Britain'. They toured with the album and actually played gigs as far north as Wick (which is an improvement on many bands who tour britain and think that playing one gig in either edinburgh or glasgow is good enough for scotland, in fact many bands do not play scotland at all), anyway, i can't wait for the day when scotland gets its independence in europe. I suspect it might be after i am dead though, sadly.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[KernelPanic]

I think this Image I have made can illustrate my views best:



The Area in Red should be nuked, abliterated, removed from this earth.

The area's circled in blue should be liberated from london (although london will no longer exist.

The area circled in pink should be floated off far into the North Sea, a worthy new home for the Welsh.

Cornwall, can merryly drift.

What remains can be the new 'Great Britain'.

Liverpool shall become the new capital.
Here are the reasons, wherever the capital is will become crowded and dirty. Since Liverpool is already a shit-hole, it is a perfect candidate. That way, my new britain shall only have one crappy place.

I think that would be a happy new nation. If only Tony Blair would give my the phone numbers for the Trident commanders.  

By the way, please don't take this seriously, especially if you happen to work for MI5/MI6, or the NSA  

[lazygamer]

quote: I have very mixed feelings about my country (usa). It is my home, and I will defend it, but a good percentage of the population are mindless drones with no direction. I don't like the people. They take everything for granted, the fact that their parents can buy them 5 new cars during high school, or that they have food, a home. We have it very good here, I just wish that we could see it. Americans seem very selfish to me. Narrow minded.

I would never defend my country overseas. If we are being invaded, sure, I'll join. Soil defense is always a worthy reason. As for overseas, the reason is that I would feel I am merely a pawn of the "great enemy", not a patriot warrior of honor.  

[KernelPanic]

quote: Tux, i am pleasantly surprised that you agree with me (well not that surprised actually). I hope i don't offend you by saying this but i think it points out an example of something i said earlier. Your signature says you are from 'Up North, UK' well, might i point out that from the impression i get, your location is actually closer to the southern tip of england than the northern tip. There could be two reasons for this little psychological slip that many people in the north of england tend to make. the first is, perhaps by thinking of themselves as 'north', they think of themselves as further form the 'south' than they really are. The second is a little more enfuriating, it scould mean that scotland simply does not count to many english people, or that it is perceived as some small northern county of england, in which case, yorkshire, lancashire et c are both 'Up North, UK'.

I coul change it to 'Up North, England', it would be technically more correct, but it sounds more isolationist. I don't want to cut you celts out like that. Anyway, i'm half irish.

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by lazygamer:
I would never defend my country overseas. If we are being invaded, sure, I'll join. Soil defense is always a worthy reason. As for overseas, the reason is that I would feel I am merely a pawn of the "great enemy", not a patriot warrior of honor.    

So where do you think Hitler would be today if people didn't go abroad to help? He might be king of Canada and you may never have been born because your ancestors would have been wiped out. Unless they happen to have had the qualities of the master race that is.