Something for all you Europeans

[Laukev7]

quote: Einstein was brain washed? HOLY FUCKING SHIT!

Just because he was Einstein doesn't mean he was right. He did not necessarily give as much thought to religion as he did to his scientific principles. Besides, some very intelligent people have been brainwashed by sects. Actually, scientists and intellgent people are EASIER to brainwash and more targeted by sects than fools.

As for me, well, I AM a college student, and only 18 years old, but have given a lot of thought to my beliefs. And you know, some young people made great discoveries, you know. Einstein, for example, and he did not even have a phD.

 

quote: And should you ever try and forcefully ban all religions some day I hope the world ignores you.

Oh, believe me, I don't think I will even need to do that.

[Laukev7]

quote:Originally posted by Faust:

Some people would say the same about blind belief in Science.  Really Dead _and_ Alive cats?  Nice one...    and I'm not just talking about non atheists here - too much scientific thought these days does not rest upon proof or evidence.  Infinite levels of dimensions?  Superstrings as a replacement for quarks/besons?  Thats all nice, but face the fact that nothing can ever explain the world - you must always base your beliefs upon fundamental axioms which can never be proven.  If you believe otherwise go read some Kant / Descartes.  Anyone know what phlogiston is?  EVERYONE believed in that stuff, but hey years later it turns out phlogiston is bullshit.  Things burn by oxidation, releasing energy from shifting electron states and transferring that energy into vibrating carbon atoms within a CO2 molecule, there really is no phlogiston in flammable materials that makes them burn.  But EVERYONE believed in non existent phlogistion because Scientists said it was there.  By the way the above is how stuff really burns.  (Well thats the thory of the day anyway         )  Quite a bit more  complicated than the standard "simplification" (face it, lies) that most people were taught about how things burn in school.

Interesting note:  The speed of light was constant according to science.  Less than a year ago Sydney University showed information showing that it...  er probably isnt constant folks.  

Blind belief in science is just the same as blind belief in religion - a crutch to help people get through their lives.

Edit: cmon peeps, some of you atheists must be pissed about this...  i wanna see some blind "i dont know what Im talking about and I use science to make the world seem nice simple and understandable to me"  flaming.          

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]

You are missing quite a few important ideas of science here. First, all those beliefs were NOT theories; they were hypotheses. A hypothesis is only called a theory once it is agreed upon and proven beyond reasonable doubt. It is also normal, and even expected that some theories may be proven wrong someday.

People do believe in anything scientists tell them, but NOT because they present hypotheses as facts. People believe them because they do not verify their sources or do any homework. The layman does not pay attention to importants keywords such as 'it is believed that' or 'many scientists speculate' or 'they claim that' when they read or watch documentaries.

 

quote: How many of you _believe_ in evolution?

I do. And this is a proven theory, not speculation. The debate between evolution and creationism was the subject of a whole English session.

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7 ]

 

quote: What makes you think that a God would want you to believe in it? Do you have any evidence that a God would try and make you believe in it? Or is this claim just baseless blind belief?  

Depends in what religion you believe in. If you believe you actually have to obey rules given by God, and that God is perfect, then one would assume that if he really was perfect, then everyone would already know the rules, or better yet, would not even be able to disobey them. We wouldn't have to 'spread the word', thus eliminating a big source of confusion and disagreement, and perhaps even violence and war. We wouldn't even be discussing this topic in the first place.

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7 ]

[Laukev7]

Umm, what is scientology, exactly? I always wondered about that religion.

By the way, 500th post! YAY!

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7 ]

[lonodnboi2k3]

quote: Believe in What ever you want to, but religion is a crock anyway, if you believe in god, or gods, or satan for that matter, you've been brain washed. Or your so emotionally pathetic that you need that crutch in your life.

      I could not agree more.

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Londonboi2k3 ]

[jasonlane]

quote:Originally posted by Laukev7:
Umm, what is scientology, exactly? I always wondered about that religion.

By the way, 500th post! YAY!

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7 ]

It's good for a couple of hours weird research. They have really, really, really strange beliefs. The founder Hubbard has been under criminal investigation here in the UK:

Xenu

The scientologist are based around a "secular" organization called Sea Org, very, very weird.

Sea ORG

Apparently there the most expensive religion in the world.

doesn't get any stranger than this.  

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Zardoz ]

[psyjax]

Well, since we are all on the topic of religion    

I might as well drop in my two cents:

http://www.xenu.net/  <- all about those kookie scientologists!

www.religioustolerance.com    <- great sight documenting and discussing the belifes of various world religions.

http://www.evcforum.net/ <-  Great forums were fundies and Scientists but heads over creationism and evolution.

Now my two cents.

The quote from Kant about fundamental axioms is correct, indeed science is no method for learning truth but rather a tool for interpretation. As humans we only have the ability to understand HOW things work not WHY things work.

Why is an unansurable question, Aristotle refered to it as "for the sake of which". This is something humans are unable to answer. Thus, saying there is no God, is fundamentaly the same as saying there is a God, both require a leap of faith far outside our perceptual realm.

You canot prove a negative, and likewise you cannot prove an absolute. Thus, theisim and atheisum stand on the same logical podium.

I take an agnostic stance with a firm belife in some sort of creative entety, weather sentient or not.

It just seems to me that the existence of... well... existence     Is rather suppernatural. Why, does it exist?

Whatever you answer the Why question with, it's up to you.

But this answer, by it's very nature, falls far outside of science, and it's something each individual must seek out for themselves.

Thus, I agree that organized religion is bullshit, but it dosn't mean there isn't wisdom to be gaind by it's teachings. There is nothing wrong with seeking spiritual fullfillment, we all do it.

EDIT: may I just add that phlogisten was not a hypothesis. Indeed all heat messurement was calculated acording to the theory.

The interesting thing is that weather you use phlogisten theory, or caloric theory to messure something. The results are still accurate!

Same with Ptolomeic Astronomy, and modern Astronomy. Whichever calculations you use for our solar system, produce accurate results.

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: psyjax: plain 'ol psyjax ]

[Refalm]

Probably the best relegion ever: Integrational Polytheism.

Probably the weirdest regigion ever: Cult of Bob.

[Laukev7]

I agree with Psyjax. By the way, this is agnosticism.

I just followed Zardoz's links about Scientology. My god, what utter twaddle, indeed!

[jasonlane]

quote:Originally posted by Laukev7:
I agree with Psyjax. By the way, this is agnosticism.

I agree with him as well.

[Faust]

Yay replies.  

 

quote:
I personally believe that beliefs are usually a dangerous thing,

Yes.

 

quote:
 Ideas are better because they can usually change, ther not dogmatic, stubborn.

Yep.  

 

quote:
Scientology's hilarious. It was basically created to prove how gullable people are and even after the creator said it was all fake people kept believing it!

People are funny like that - ridicule anyones fullest beliefs and even go as far as proving that they're false and they will argue harder to mantain consistency.  Back in 2000 one of those doomsday cults claimed that on New Years a spaceship would come and save them from the Earths destruction...  So they waited at the "site" for the "saviors" (media there of course) and at midnight, no spaceship, no doomsday.  About half the members quit right then - but the other half, the strong believers became fanatical in their belief *because* that belief was just shown as really fucking stupid.  The fear that you may be wrong is extremely strong - so people will go to massively illogical lengths to try and mantain consistency in their beliefs.  You can use this to con people btw, the Koreans used it on American POWs - get a captured soldier to admit a *trivial* thing that is wrong with the US on paper, even something tiny like "The US is not perfect" - which is fucking obvious as no country is perfect.  Of course you get a small food reward for this - hey its not like selling out your country right?  Your starving and its true, the soldies still believed (rightly IMO) that America was in the right.  Then of course a Korean general reads the signed statement "america is not perfect" out in front of all the other American POWs.  Suddenly you look like a traitor and this gave Koreans a huge psych edge in any and all brainwashing.

 

quote:
That movie sucked ass.

"So bad it's good."  Kinda like "Kung Pow," or "The master of disguise."

[Faust]

quote:
religion is not speaking for him and if it is then I don't want to know that sort of god anyway.

[aol]me too![/aol]  Personally if it turns out there is a God who *wants* to kill the unbelievers and smite the heathens, I think we should start looking at building some metaphysical nuclear weapon of some kind.

 

quote:
Just because he was Einstein doesn't mean he was right. He did not necessarily give as much thought to religion as he did to his scientific principles

that wasn't my point - indeed on matters of physics listen to Einstein, on everything else tell him to shut the fuck up.     I was showing that not all believers in religion are necessarily dumb country hicks as was claimed earlier - and also you cannot claim you know more than "churchies" because "you're smarter."

 

quote:
You are missing quite a few important ideas of science here. First, all those beliefs were NOT theories; they were hypotheses. A hypothesis is only called a theory once it is agreed upon and proven beyond reasonable doubt. It is also normal, and even expected that some theories may be proven wrong someday.

Theres very little difference.  All scientific beliefs are merely succesive iterations in a general direction towards a higher level of "accuracy."  Up until recently Newtons theories of gravitation were believed to be absolute - but have now been replace by einsteins "more correct" theories of relativity.  However Newtons theories are _close enough_ and more importantly a necessary stepping stone on the road to teaching High School students science.

 

quote:
A hypothesis is only called a theory once it is agreed upon and proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Then there *are* no hypothes' (stupid plurals...) by this definition then, for it is impossible to prove something absolutely.  Unless you mean "reasonable doubt" as being "only abnormal people dont believe in this" in which case phlogiston held - it was a commonly believed scientific law.  And there WERE experiments carried out - people burned stuff and hey it got lighter!  (these were experiments performed and _believed_ by accepted scientists.)  so OBVIOUSLY something had to be leaving the substance, and that something had to be phlogiston - you could even see it in the form of flames.  Nowadays we know that actually masses dont decrease when you burn stuff (well not by much - some is converted into minute amounts of energy by the laws of quantum physics of course.)  - its just that a lot of the mass gets turned into other states (like gases) and you cant weigh gas accurately with 18th century equipment.  I fully expect that in a few centuries time we will have more accurate equipment that debunks a lot of todays scientific facts - theres even a famous quote about quantum physics - "if you think you understand QP you dont."

 

quote:
People do believe in anything scientists tell them, but NOT because they present hypotheses as facts. People believe them because they do not verify their sources or do any homework. The layman does not pay attention to importants keywords such as 'it is believed that' or 'many scientists speculate' or 'they claim that' when they read or watch documentaries.

A good scientist will *never* believe in an absolute truth, because there are too many examples of what eventually happens to a "proof" later on down the line.  They said that firmars equation was impossible - in the last 4 years it was solved.  (the proof took 10,000 pages)

 

quote:
I do. And this is a proven theory, not speculation. The debate between evolution and creationism was the subject of a whole English session.

There are major flaws in evolutioniary theory, and very few expert opinions coincide with each other.  Still it has a heck of a lot less holes than say Creationism so I choose to place my faith in evolution at this point in time.

 

quote:
Depends in what religion you believe in. If you believe you actually have to obey rules given by God, and that God is perfect, then one would assume that if he really was perfect, then everyone would already know the rules, or better yet, would not even be able to disobey them. We wouldn't have to 'spread the word', thus eliminating a big source of confusion and disagreement, and perhaps even violence and war. We wouldn't even be discussing this topic in the first place.

Yes - there are severe logic errors in any claim that God is a)perfect and b)wants you to believe.  But it is only if you try and claim the last two that you fuck up, not by claiming the existence of God.

 

quote:
 The debate between evolution and creationism was the subject of a whole English session.

One WHOLE english lesson?  Holy shit!  Like a whole 40 minutes?  Wow...  

[ July 29, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]

[suselinux]

quote:Originally posted by Faust:

Einstein was brain washed?  HOLY FUCKING SHIT!  Or was it the emotional crutches?  Some VERY intelligent people believe in God numb nuts - yes, many are conformist morons, but so are many anti god idiots.  I have seen high school students try to take on people who have phds in mathematics over the God issue - and the atheist high school students think they know that God doesn't exist because they're "smarter."  (Really a lot of people that dont believe in God are just following the crowd and havent really thought through the issue.  Admit it.  Atheism is cool.)  Im not saying you should have to believe in an all powerful being - really some of the arguments put forward for Gods existence are a bit lame (the design argument) or plain circular (anything by Descartes.)  But you cant disprove the existence of a God either - try and keep fascist ideas about control to yourself please?

Unless you _want_ me to start refering to you as the thought police.

Einstien did have an emotional crutch, he believed in God and it hindered him,  He was not willing to believe that the universe was finite, because that would mean GOD was finite so he MADE UP the Lambda
(greek letter looks like an "L" kinda) force, and you know what it screwed up his theory of relativity so he took it out and that was when he stopped studying relativity, because he was at a loss---How can the universe be finite when God created it?----because he dosen't exist.


BTW Einstien married his own cousin.

Faust you believe very strongly in something (judging by your posts) and frankly I envy you.  I wish I had the capacity to believe in God.

[suselinux]

quote:Originally posted by Faust:


How many of you _believe_ in evolution?

I thought every one did   :confused: .........honestly

[Faust]

quote:
 quote:
 Believe in What ever you want to, but religion is a crock anyway, if you believe in god, or gods, or satan for that matter, you've been brain washed. Or your so emotionally pathetic that you need that crutch in your life.

      I could not agree more.

If you cant agree more then post some arguments - blind assertions seem kinda...  irattional you brainwashed little man.  

Psyjax : nice, could not agree more.

BTW in case anyone was wondering I'm heterodox Christian.  I am willing to place money on the past existence of a Jesus, and the same for a "force/god thingy"  (ooh star warsy...)  i dont believe in all the funky shit in the bible though - there is no gurantee that all of that was written by people who knew Jesus or spoke to God, and indeed a lot of the new Testament was written hundreds of years after Jesus supposedly died.  Anyway half the fucking thing contradicts the other half...  Also the church can suck my  ^*%* anbd like it.     Any religious group that refuses to release documents written by their own prophets in the name of "mantaining the churches teachings" is fucking bullshit IMO.  Why the fuck would God need a frigging hierarchy anyway?  ITS GOD YOU MORONS!  IT CAN TALK TO MULTIPLE PEOPLE AT MULTIPLE TIMES IF IT WANTS TO!
Also the idea of a sentient / in human form / or human comprehensible God is kinda... stupid.  And God IMO couldnt have a sex either.  Why would a God need a dick?  its not like its gunna be "getting with" other Gods or all the worshippers.  And I cant see a God taking a slash no matter how hard I try...

One thing though : priests play with too many little boys.

[suselinux]

quote:Originally posted by suselinux:


Einstien did have an emotional crutch, he believed in God and it hindered him,  He was not willing to believe that the universe was finite, because that would mean GOD was finite so he MADE UP the Lambda
(greek letter looks like an "L" kinda) force, and you know what it screwed up his theory of relativity so he took it out and that was when he stopped studying relativity, because he was at a loss---How can the universe be finite when God created it?----because he dosen't exist.

god works in mysterious ways.........
web page

[ July 29, 2003: Message edited by: suselinux ]