Piracy

[Calum]

plus, can i just say, when i used windows 100% i pirated a lot of shit. it got to the point where i didn't have anything new that i wanted that i could pirate! (never got into windows games)

as it happens, there are alternatives that i prefer in linux for a lot of this stuff, and linux is really coming into its own now i am starting to think about programming, why does windows come with a bullshit media player, embedded browser, crap email client, shitty paintpad app and so on, when it doesn't even come with a single compiler?

anyway as it happens the only programs i use in windows now are either free, or they are ones i actually paid for: i paid for windows (a long time ago!), and Nero, and Sound Forge, both of which i use occasionally, and mozilla, opera, trillian, getright and so on are all free.

i think i've harped on for long enough, all i'm saying is there's no fucking excuse so stop coming out with this "poor man's revenge" bullshit and be honest about it.

[lazygamer]

Ok I think im starting to see the point of this "pirating helps wind0ze" bit. I guess it's true, but I will not disrupt my lifestyle for ethics.

[Calum]

maybe you will someday, however there are a lot more important things to get active about if you ever do...

[flap]

I could never feel guilty for illegally copying software/music from people who aren't willing to distribute their software/music freely. I *do* feel guilty for downloading a Linux distro full of free software and giving nothing back in return.

Even if I am harming these people by not paying them, I really don't care. Microsoft, Adobe, Metallica and so on are all part of the problem and until they become part of the solution I won't comply with their wish that I should refuse to co-operate with other people.

Sure, they have every right to say "Fuck society, I have to make a living to make and this is a safe way to do that." And I have the right (well, maybe not the _legal_ right) to say "Fuck Metallica/Adobe, I'll do what I like with their music/software as they clearly don't give a shit about me."

And this is the kind of attitude that these copyright abusers engender. We all think "fuck the corporations" - and we should. Then on the other hand you have companies like Mandrake that people actually donate money to as if they were a charity. You don't generate this kind of good will amongst your customers by saying "Oh feel free to listen to my music/use my software but only under these terms that are designed to screw you as much as I can possibly get away with."

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by flap:
I could never feel guilty for illegally copying software/music from people who aren't willing to distribute their software/music freely. I *do* feel guilty for downloading a Linux distro full of free software and giving nothing back in return.

Don't feel guilty. They aren't asking you to pay them. And if you do pay someone you will likely not be paying the person you really mean to pay (the original programmer of the utility). If you have the money pay them. If you don't, don't worry about it. It is better for you to use Linux and not pay for it then it is for you to use M$ whether you pay for it or not. Any GPL coder would be happy if your choice were Linux over M$ no matter what.

 

quote:
Even if I am harming these people by not paying them, I really don't care. Microsoft, Adobe, Metallica and so on are all part of the problem and until they become part of the solution I won't comply with their wish that I should refuse to co-operate with other people.

You still don't get it. You are not harming them by not paying. You are *helping* them and *harming* you. Please don't do it!

[Calum]

quote:Originally posted by flap:
Even if I am harming these people by not paying them, I really don't care. Microsoft, Adobe, Metallica and so on are all part of the problem and until they become part of the solution I won't comply with their wish that I should refuse to co-operate with other people.

Sure, they have every right to say "Fuck society, I have to make a living to make and this is a safe way to do that." And I have the right (well, maybe not the _legal_ right) to say "Fuck Metallica/Adobe, I'll do what I like with their music/software as they clearly don't give a shit about me."

i agree with the principle but the reality does not carry through. life is not that easy.

Listening to metallica makes more people hear it. they will all be dumb enough to go and buy "Metallica - Dumb" or whatever it was called, and you have helped rather than hindered the band you wanted to screw over, by pirating their stuff. This is why you should rather pirate music by bands who say it is okay to do so, because when their record sales go up, you get the warm fuzzies from knowing you helped it along by bootlegging their music!

Now obviously it's down to musical taste and so on. if you like metallica and hate radiohead then there's no point me saying to listen to radiohead instead just because they have a good bootlegging policy, that would be pointless.

all i am saying is that this "i'm screwing the system" shit is UNTRUE. If you really were screwing the system, do you think you would still be allowed to do it?

Society is not a big game of chess, you know, it's an even bigger game of solitaire.

[flap]

I think we're debating different points here. I believed that you were suggesting with

 

quote:I said stealing to imply that it is theft if the person who holds the copyright does not want you copying it.

that it's wrong to "pirate" the stuff of people who don't want you copying it because that means you're "stealing" from them i.e. that this somehow hurts them. That and the point (with which I completely agree) about inadvertently helping proprietary software vendors/bands like Metallica by copying their stuff are different issues.

[RudeCat7]

I didn't see microsoft complaining when cd-burners were first coming out.

All they had to do was prevent them from writing the CDDA format.

microsoft plan:

1)make money off cd burning software
2)make money off new hardware based security to end rampant pirating of software.

evil plan, evil empire

Plus, without pirating, none of these expensive programs would be household names!  How many kids would be talking about Photoshop if they had to pop $600 to use it? These companies are not losing money to these kids, they would never, probably in their lifetimes be able to justify spending so much money on a piece of software!

I am not defending it, but I stand against the claim that companies are losing MILLION$ to these kids.
Most of the crap that is downloaded is just that, crap. They are part of the brainwashed mentality that says you need to upgrade, be current, stay compatible!

The world could still run on windows for workgroups 3.11. It did at one time!

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: RudeCat7 ]

[Pantso]

quote:Originally posted by void main:
Not really, it makes them more dependent on the software they are copying and they aren't learning anything else. Should they get a job where they need to use software legally which do you think they would choose.  Likely it would be that which they are used to, the stuff they pirated previously.

That's 100% correct! By pirating M$ software you're really playing their game. M$ would prefer if people were pirating their software rather than turning to open source. Do you really think that they don't know how many pirated copies of Windows are out there? How do you explain the fact that a copy of Windows XP Corporate Edition not requirin activation hit the warez sites and newsgroups days before the official release? Someone from M$ made sure it got out, following orders from his majesty Bill Gates. How can anyone also explain the fact that there are cracked versions of XP SP1 out there working with pirated copies of XP? Need I remind you that M$ claimed to have identified the pirated CD keys thus blocking access to the SP1?

All this is too suspicious to just believe it's just coincidental....

[Crunchy(Cracked)Butter]

I still don't understand the thousands of people who HAVE pirated XP itself, i certainly wouldn't, not when i've been complaining about the rest of their products, whats the point in getting another one, yes its pirated but you still have to waste time installing the bastard peice of shit!

Yeah i can see why you'd want to just to rub the dirt is MS's face but i would rather waste my blank discs on something else or do something more destructive (see below).  Some stupid people bitch and moan about it then still use it instead of using something else(not talking about anybody here mind you, since i don't know any of you)!  

A good way of of pissing MS off is burning 100's copies (if you could be bothered) of XP.  Put them in a box, sign and address it to the Beast of Redmound using a postal service (I use Royal Mail in the UK (goes with the intended joke so some might get it).  Then put a note inside saying something like: "Saw this and thought of you.  But i still use linux because its free"!

Something i said i will never ever do (use XP), hence my switch to nix.

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Crunchy(Cracked)Butter ]

[Calum]

i was astonished that anybody would pirate, let alone buy windows xp, and sorry, but it seemed to be americans that all rushed out and bought/copied it immediately it came out. I have only encountered one windows xp machine so far in real life.

also, if Microsoft don't want people copying their software, why is there even a version of windows that doesn't need registering? it's pointless.

They and other companies have their prices high to pay for all the lost revenue from pirating and at the same time the high prices make people copy a program that they will likely never use, justto get it for free. This is better than any kind of advertising for those software 'developers'.

[pkd_lives]

After reading through here it seems to me some people have mistaken the law with ethics. My ethics tell me (because they are MY ethics - a personal choice) that I can copy music and software by big, rich people and companies. These people have money and will not fall short of dinner on the table by my actions. On the other hand there are people struggling to do something (usually something different and superior) and hungry, I have no problem buying their music/software/books/art/whatever. That is my ethics, the law is to not infringe copyright whatsoever.

The laws on piracy are just one of many wrong laws that exist. I have no problem with copyright protection. I have no right to copy an authors' work and sell it under my name, or publish without his consent. However I do not believe that his desendents have ANY right to the copyright of that work. The same with patents. Patent law is wrong in so many ways, not least of which NO company should have the right of ownership over trademarks, catchphrases, patents, copyright or any intellectual right whatsoever, only individuals have that right, and it should expire after a time (essentially when that person is dead).

Piracy is wrong and pointless. I'm sorry if this upsets you but NO game is so good you HAVE to have a copy. No application is so perfect so wonderful that you cannot find another to do the job, or get it written yourself. Hell even the OS you choose is not essential (Linus Torvalds decided to write his own). Piracy is by and large the action of over indulgent self interest and laziness.

As for whether one should copy M$ stuff. The answer is a no. I do not advocate the use of that OS, I do not accept that you have to use it, and I do not accept the arguments about having to learn something new. Tough shit. You should not be using a computer if you don't have basic skills in computing. And yes I mean that I expect everyone who uses a computer to have training to a certain level. I have never trained in Windows (or any other software product) and yet I can proficiently use wordprocessor, spreadsheets, databases, CAD/CAE, etc.,etc. And it takes me a short amount of time to learn new stuff, why? Because I make the effort. It's incredilbly lazy to use M$ when there are superior and cheaper (actually free, believe it or not) alternatives. In short there is no need to pirate M$ software, and so the question is not whether piracy is right, but whether it's even necessary. I don't need to pirate M$ software, and so I don't need to break disagreeable laws.

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: pkd ]

[voidmain]

Good post pkd. I totally agree but I have also added the fact that piracy actually helps Microsoft rather than hurts them, which is against what myself and many others on this site stand for. So the reasons for not pirating M$ software are more than just legal and ethical reasons.

[Calum]

void main and pkd, those are my feelings exactly.

[lazygamer]

quote:
I still don't understand the thousands of people who HAVE pirated XP itself, i certainly wouldn't, not when i've been complaining about the rest of their products, whats the point in getting another one, yes its pirated but you still have to waste time installing the bastard peice of shit!

Of course you don't, only a late convert(we're working on that) of Tux(me) could ever understand. When you have no knowledge of Linux, particularly MS evil, your willing to upgrade to a better wind0ze to get a better OS. After all, W98 is generally better then W95, and XP is definitly better then W98, and with pirated versions, no need to worry about the activation BS.  XP really is nicer then W98, just make sure your using the pirated version. Oh yes, as for why you pirate it, well it's simple logic that MS is wayyyy too rich as it is, and goddamn that software is expensive. So now you have the info from someone who was there(special thanx to my brother for the pirated Windoze XP).  

 

quote:That's 100% correct! By pirating M$ software you're really playing their game. M$ would prefer if people were pirating their software rather than turning to open source. Do you really think that they don't know how many pirated copies of Windows are out there? How do you explain the fact that a copy of Windows XP Corporate Edition not requirin activation hit the warez sites and newsgroups days before the official release? Someone from M$ made sure it got out, following orders from his majesty Bill Gates. How can anyone also explain the fact that there are cracked versions of XP SP1 out there working with pirated copies of XP? Need I remind you that M$ claimed to have identified the pirated CD keys thus blocking access to the SP1?

Ok that's a good theory, but how do we know that MS simply is too in-competent. Do you think that game companies want us pirating their software? Do they have much to gain(unlike musicians) when I go and get a pirated version of their game? Why not just exercise all this extra power they(game companies) suposedly have avoided using and kill piracy? Oh yes, I forgot, they can't. Everyone does it, Canadian police don't give a shit about boo-hoo American corporations losing money from people getting free games off the net, they would only remotely care about those who actually resell the pirate games. It all comes down to the bigger fish to fry concept(in addition to clogging up the legal system and getting off with a hand slap). Im sure many Amercian police think that exact same way.

Now if this holds true for the game companies, why woulden't it hold true for MS? Although I can understand that MS WOULD have something to gain from piracy of their software.