Who owes me a new computer?

[Seeking000]

I have this 'wonderful' Dell Dimension 4300 that came from the factory with Windows XP; and a shared IRQ with sound and graphics.  Needless to say; my computer cannot run music composition software (one of my primary uses for a computer).

For the most part, it manages the IRQ's pretty well (Microsoft claims superior IRQ sharing on XP over other systems - and that chnaging IRQ's is unecessary (despite the fact that you 'can't' change them in Win XP).

So I have three culprits with three different sides of the story:

1.) Music composition creation software companies (almost all of them use sound and graphics at extremely high IRQ access)
2.) Microsoft for making these false claims about Windows XP's ability to share IRQ's
3.) Dell, for placing sound and graphics on the same IRQ in Windows XP in the first place.

From the research I have conducted (being completely computer illiterate); trying to get to the bottom of this issue - I find for Microsoft and Dell.  It would either be a case of gross negligence or a greedy merger minimalizing how hard this would be to articulate for the average user that confronts this problem.  I have probably spent well over $400.00 in telephone bills and a hundred or so hours scouring the internet trying to decipher 'computer talk'.  I amazed I haven't completely destroyed my computer yet - a nod to both Microsoft and my penchant for having OCD and being overly cautious.

What are your opinions on the matter please?  I'm not a lawyer or anything, just an average person..

-Seeking000

[badkarma]

when I tried out winxp I had the same problem, winxp incisted on hanging 6 devices on 1 irq. I could not find a way to manually re-assign the irq's and I just gave up and threw windows xp out the window. Use win2k, I don't think irq steering is as much as a problem there (but I don't run windows anymore so I wouldn't know   )

[Calum]

morally, i would say it's the makers of the hardware that are mostly to blame. They make it a physical impossibility to do what you want to do. Next up, the makers of the system are partially to blame, maybe not much, maybe a lot depending on how you think about it, on one hand, Microsoft have only released a shit OS, so if you got a decent OS, you could use your hardware to its full potentiality (assuming your hardware was capable of things that the OS did not allow). On the other hand, your hardware is not up to snuff, and i bet that Dell would not have allowed this to be the case if not for Microsoft. After all, why waste money making hardware that has full functionality when the "only operating system that anybody uses" doesn't support half the features?
Microsoft dictates how crippled a particular generation of hardware is by releasing crippled operating systems.
Hardware vendors deserve a slap for making crippled hardware which matches the crippled OS perfectly.

And at the end of the day, the ambiguousness of the scenario means that legally, NOONE is to blame. You could fight it in court for the rest of your life and get nothing.

Read the licence agreement for your copy of windows xp, you will see that there is a clause there which allows Microsoft to actually change the contract in their favour even after you have agreed to the terms and it is then your responsibility to read the updates (which they don't notify you about) to find out your legal position. This clause itself has not been tested in the courts so there is a possibility that this retroactive clause itself is illegal (by virtue that it may violate your statutory rights).

You can bet that Dell will have as airtight a licence agreement (if perhaps slightly more orthadox, and maybe less totalitarian (though i wouldn't bet on it)) so good luck getting a new machine out of either of them...

[Calum]

quote:Originally posted by BadKarma:
. Use win2k, I don't think irq steering is as much as a problem there

Don't bother, upgrade to mandrake linux 8.2 rather than downgrading to windows 2000.

GNU/Linux is free, so you haven't lost anything even if you do decide to go back to that familiar money eating hardware stomping virus trap you know as Microsoft windows.

You likely will not though, after a bit of settling in time, mandrake linux should be no trouble for anybody who has used winNT in my humble opinion...

edit: brain engaged, whilst there is music composition software for linux, it is perhaps not so intuitive or in many cases as advanced as the sort of thing you get for windows. You may wish to try out what is on offer however, also, you may wish to use an emulator to run your existing windows programs in linux, such as 'wine', wineX' or 'VMWare'.
It is largely accepted that these emulators actually run the programs more stably than if they ran in their native windows, since the linux system is much more stable underneath. Also, if you can resolve this irq thing in linux, then you should have no bother with your irqs when using a windows emulator.
I must say though, i haven't tried running windows apps in linux myself, but i just thought i should add all that since you were originally saying you needed to run music composition software.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[Seeking000]

Thank you for the quick and helpful responses.
Another interesting tidbit...
The soundcard 'upgrade' offered by Dell is the Santa Cruz Turtle Beach card.  What's interesting is that this is the only sound card that has been certified by Microsoft to be compatable with XP - (some digital / wave thing I don't fully comprehend).  The irony?

Whenever I use the native OS's synth and open any music composition program .. that program will crash with any sound activity and restart the computer, at which point the computer will crash continuously unless I disable Microsofts native win XP synthesiser from interacting with the _only_ sound card approved for that OS!

Is that crazy or what?

-Seeking000

[Refalm]

I have the same problem with my Creative PCI 128. It works well on Windows 2000 (friend has Windows 2000 with the same soundcard), but try it out with Windows XP and the whole soundcard will become too damn slow.

[Calum]

seeking000, you say the actual system crashes the machine purely because you use your recommended sound card? AND that the system continues to do so when you restart the machine? That seems completely beyond a joke.

This is one reason why i will never be using XP in my entire life.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[Seeking000]

quote: seeking000, you say the actual system crashes the machine purely because you use your recommended sound card? AND that the system continues to do so when you restart the machine? That seems completely beyond a joke.
This is one reason why i will never be using XP in my entire life.

NO!  It's even _'funnier'_ than that!  It goes into the crash loop when I use the OS's recommended soundcard with the _very_ virtual synthesizer that this sound card was created to support.  I can't remember where I read it (couldn't be too hard to find)... the Santa Cruz was actually developed in the Microsoft environment (as opposed to having to 'guess' against the proprietary coding) and went through testing there as well.  It was a 'merger' of sorts, the goal of which; to tout and make viable Microsofts new sound format in Windows XP (supposedly far superior to other sound formats).

The irony is cataclysmic for what I was hoping for, and from what was being promised and touted.
I can't even imagine the thought of bothering with my external synthesizer yet!!!  I can get the Santa Cruz synth to work with music software, but then the IRQ conflict freezes the computer when reaching the end of a score (an absolute nightmare if you want to hear a note or a section over and over and over again)...  this will force me to shut down the computer _unless_ I bring up the task manager, close the task manager, bring up the task manager .. etc

For some reason, this process captures the IRQ freeze and ultimately resolves it within a few minutes... otherwise; I'll have to restart my computer everytime I play a song or note.

-Seeking000

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Seeking000 ]

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Seeking000 ]

[Master of Reality]

ahhhh...thats where i love linux.... wait a minute... I dont have sound in Linux, but at least trying to play sound doesnt crash my OS  

[Zombie9920]

Surely you aren't trying to use onboard sound for the music composition software? Onboard sound sucks for that kind of stuff. Heck, onboard sound even sucks for voice recognition software. I would recommend that you get a good sound card like a SB Audigy. The SB Live 5.1 is pretty good still and it can be had for around $30 nowadays.

I have absolutely no problems at all doing anything Audio related with my Audigy card. I'm sure an Audigy would benefit you greatly.

Also, are you using music composition software that is compatible with XP? If you are using a Win9x only version of the app that could be your problem because Win9x's driver structure(for the sound card and whatever else the app uses) is completely different than Win2K/XP's driver structure. If the app tries to use the sound card as if it were in Win9x it will most ikely crash or freeze. You can always try running the program in the Windows 98/ME application compatibility layerto see if it solves your lock up problem.

(EDIT)I see your using a Turtle Beach, Santa Cruz soundcard instead of onboard sound. I've never used a Santa Cruz but I've heard a mixed bag of things about that card. I've heard mainly good things about it from Win9x users  and I've heard some bad things about it from Win2K/XP users..things like the drivers for it suck in 2K/XP, it causes lockups in 2K/XP, etc. Perhaps maybe you should look into a Creative Labs Soundblaster Audigy. I have an Audigy and I can say it never gives me any problems in XP(not to mention it is more advanced than the Santa Cruz also). On top of EAX and limited A3D support it also has Advanced HD EAX(allows a different EAX effect on each channel at the same time) an IEEE 1394 firewire port and it supports playback and recording of 24-bit audio.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]

[Heru]

While it is incredably funny that the ONLY sound card approved for use in XP ultimately crashes the system, zombie is right about it.

I've heard many bad things about that card in XP, never having used it myself I can't be sure.  However I think if you were to try a different card(like a Soundblaster PCI 512 or Audigy) you would have better luck.  No promises though, because it could be partially caused by a flaw in the Computer system itself.

Also trying out Linux and some of the music programs for it may be a good idea.  I have no idea if the Santa Cruz cards will work in Linux though.  But to maximize your chances of it working, you should go with an easy to use distro like Mandrake.

[Seeking000]

I'll give Audigy a try (I was drooling over it at the local computer shop).  As for what I have tried...  I have tried compatability mode for all OS's that XP allows; I have tried VMing many of the OS's and I have tried true versions and demo's from a variety of top notch to freeware music creation programs that do and do not claim XP support.  Not to mention trying clearly over 1000 different configuration settings within the operating system itself, plus spending 'days and days' working with "XP DOS" in boot-up to force an IRQ change.  I have long since disabled anything from plug&play to reverting the automatic controls XP uses back to PC.. and back again and off again .. backing up data many times.  I've been trying to learn how to read binary and maybe reverse engineer the OS (it turns out to be very difficult for a complete newb with no guidence!).  I've come to the conclusion that many aspects will involve new hardware and something along the lines of a new native OS.  *sigh*

Long, laborious and not much to show for my efforts..

Seeking000

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Seeking000 ]

[alied_perez]

quote:Originally posted by Seeking000:
Thank you for the quick and helpful responses.
Another interesting tidbit...
The soundcard 'upgrade' offered by Dell is the Santa Cruz Turtle Beach card.  What's interesting is that this is the only sound card that has been certified by Microsoft to be compatable with XP - (some digital / wave thing I don't fully comprehend).  The irony?

Whenever I use the native OS's synth and open any music composition program .. that program will crash with any sound activity and restart the computer, at which point the computer will crash continuously unless I disable Microsofts native win XP synthesiser from interacting with the _only_ sound card approved for that OS!

Is that crazy or what?

-Seeking000

That happened to me when I tried to use my laptop modem with th M$-Certified-And-Tested Driver for WinXP. The modem never got to dial. Then I used the Win2k driver, and after I convinced WinXP that I'm older than 18, I'm responsible for my acts, I know why digitally signing is good, and I love Bill Gates, I could use the modem. This was just for a time. From time to time I had to reinstall the Win2k modem just 'cause the smart XP used to change it. If I didn't have to develop soft for Windows, I'd never tried XP, and if I weren't about to live my current job, (and to return the laptop; I live in Cuba) I'd have removed it a long time ago.