being "professional" (long rant about corps vs employees as individuals)

[Chooco]

communism just sucks ass, it has never worked.
-USA is wealthy and capitalist
-Britain is wealthy and capitalist
-Germany is wealthy and capitalist
-Canada is wealthy and capitalist
-Australia is wealthy and capitalist

now lets look on the other side of the spectrum
-Russia is poor from being Communist
-China is poor and communist
-basically all of East Europe is or was communist and are poorer than crap

[Doctor V]

quote:Originally posted by Chooco:
communism just sucks ass, it has never worked.
-USA is wealthy and capitalist
-Britain is wealthy and capitalist
-Germany is wealthy and capitalist
-Canada is wealthy and capitalist
-Australia is wealthy and capitalist

now lets look on the other side of the spectrum
-Russia is poor from being Communist
-China is poor and communist
-basically all of East Europe is or was communist and are poorer than crap

The "Communism" run by the Soviets, Chinese, and Eastern Europe was very very different from the communism in books written by Karl Marx.  It was based on the Soviet totalitarianism set up by Joseph Stalin.  Stalin was an evil power hungry dictator, and even Lenin didn't like his ways.  I certainly do not support that type of government.  On the other hand.  Lets look at countries that, while not Communist, have had Socalist ideas incorporated into them.  Some good examples would be Germany, Sweden, and the Netherlands.  (I have never lived in any of those countries, and apologize to anyone if what I am saying is not totally accurate).  They are considered among the best places to live in the world.  Lets also remember China was poor before they even started communism, and now after moving away from communism and towards socalism, they are posied to become a rich nation.

USA has never been 100% capitalist.  It is however today moving rapidly in that direction.  A good example of a purely capitalist country would be Brazil.  In Brazil, there is a small ultra-rich minority and masses who are in utter poverty.  Two classes of people.  This is the way is is basically for all of South America, Africa, Southern Asia, and the Middle East.

So, I think few people actually want to be Communist, but want to be moderately Socalist or Capitalist with Socalist ideas incorporated into society.

V 0.8.7

[psyjax]

In Plato's Republic, one can see the diffrence between what we call a socialist (or even communist) nation and a capitalist (or democratic) nation, is the abundance of luxurie.

Where one country may have many trinkits and nice superflous sparklies, the others have the bare essentials held as that which is truely valuable.

I don't think it's a simple question about right or wrong, good or sux ass. It's a question of ideological morality. Which one produces the most virtuous people and which produces those who are consided, petty, materialistic, and egotistical  

Beside's were talking about Socialism not Communism.

[Calum]

the problem with US people (and of course there are many exceptions, so don't take offence if you are a US citizen who isn't like this(!)) is that many of them tend to lump a lot of things together under the bracket of 'communism'.

socialism is not communism, but many people have a hard time understanding the many differences (and i'm no longer talking about just americans).

socialism is inherently more complicated than capitalism, and while it has more benefits, it is much more intricate and delicate. a tribal/clan based society such as natively occurred in scotland, many parts of africa, australia and northern america has no chance when it is hit head on by a single minded monarchy such as the spanish/british/dutch/whoever empire/invaders.

Basically the simplicity of capitalism makes it more workable, but less rewarding on the whole. The human is not a completely social or selfish animal and so many attempts at either scenario will have varying degrees of success or failure and will inevitably lead the humans sconcerned to think that the grass is greener on the other side.

[Kintaro]

quote:Originally posted by creedon:
I think that Australians have a skewed perspective on Americans.  It might be your convict heritage (how's it feel?).  I was born and brought up in the immediate area of the first pure Communist society in history (it pre-dated Marx and Engels).  The Oneida Community was a religious society that held all property in common; they also had no real marriages, nor were children raised by their biological parents.  They even dabbled in Human breeding experiments, with some pretty bad results (they didn't know about recessive/dominant genes).  The actual community no longer exists, but perhaps you may have heard of Oneida Community Limited, the biggest manufacturer of tableware in the world.
There were a large number of Socialist/Communist experiments in the United States.  It's too bad that none of them were succesful, it might have changed the way Americans are perceved by the rest of the world.

Creedon your one of the 2% that are good!
What im saying is that the US Citizens dont know anything about Socialism/Communism because there heads are up there asses. I should have posted more descriptively!

[Doctor V]

quote:Originally posted by Calum-21.2:
the problem with US people (and of course there are many exceptions, so don't take offence if you are a US citizen who isn't like this(!)) is that many of them tend to lump a lot of things together under the bracket of 'communism'.

This is true.  To say anything leftist at all runs the risk of being called a commie.  Its sad how few people in America really understand what Communism is.  

In America, people have been taught since they were children that Communism is the Great Evil.  So people start hating Communism and socalism without really knowing what it is.  And when told about what it is, they are usually given a very biased explination.

Its very important that people understand that modern Socalism is not the same as what was preached by Stalin and others.  Totalitarianism is certainly NOT Socalism.  In fact Socalism is by nature democratic.

It seems America is moving closer and closer to Capitalistic totalitarianism.  Instead of people having no rights and everything being dictated by the government, business is what is stripping people's rights away one by one, and dictating every aspect of people's lives.

V 0.8.7

[flap]

quote:Originally posted by Chooco:
communism just sucks ass, it has never worked.
-USA is wealthy and capitalist
-Britain is wealthy and capitalist
-Germany is wealthy and capitalist
-Canada is wealthy and capitalist
-Australia is wealthy and capitalist

now lets look on the other side of the spectrum
-Russia is poor from being Communist
-China is poor and communist
-basically all of East Europe is or was communist and are poorer than crap

The reason those countries adopted communism was because they were poor in the first place, not the other way around.

That's about as intelligent as saying "non-caucasians suck ass".

USA is white and wealthy
UK is white and wealthy
Germany is white and wealthy

Nigeria is non-white and poor
Afghanistan is non-white and poor
China is non-white and poor

[Calum]

whites are human and stupid,
blacks are human and stupid,
asians are human and stupid,
aboriginal australian and aboriginal north and south americans are human and stupid,
oriental people are human and stupid,

by contrast,

dolphins are nonhuman and have never stuffed up the planet,
elephants are nonhuman and have never invented any weapons,
penguins are nonhuman and have never had a war
aardvarks are nonhuman and have never imposed sanctions
horses are nonhuman and do not make a habit of allowing other horses to go hungry in order to line their own pockets

you see what i'm getting at?

[creedon]

There's a basic fallacy in both systems; the capitalist system basically says that if you work hard, you will accumulate personal wealth and live well.  The Socialist system says that all workers should work hard, the state will become wealthy and share the benefits of that wealth equally with all the workers.
What neither system addresses is the tendancy of the leaders of a system to try to hold on to power (leadership).  That's the fly in the ointment; Humans are Anthropoids, with the social hierarchy of that species; "I've got power, and I'm going to hold onto it any way I can."  As far as I know, there has never been a completely selfless Human in a leadership position in history, and once the leader has established his authority, he establishes a system of support that ensures that he will remain in power by giving authority to other individuals who support him.  Once a system like this is in place, the majority of the population is only allowed to rise to a controlable point; in other words, Capitalism and Socialism both limit the rise of the average individual, keeping him in a position  where he can't threaten leaders without risking his limited social status, or his life.
My conclusion is this; Anarchy is the only system that allows an individual to actually better his social position, but Anarchy is a Uti=opian dream that requires cooperation between individuals that our Anthropoid ancestry won't allow; in other words, we're fucked- live with it.

[hm_murdock]

No... Marxist Communism doesn't say "people work hard and state gets rich"... that's Lenin and Stalin's work.

Real communism has never existed, and can't exist as long as people think they need money instead of simpler things, like food and shelter. If anybody lived in a true communistic society, they'd rather die than live in an ass-backward country like the States.

The US *is* moving to capitalistic totalitarianism... and fast. Such a thing is even worse than Leninism. Instead of there being a man, or men to blame... there's only organizations that are at the same time public and private. Anybody could own part of the company, but the company would still own you.

Think of Robocop... the police, military, public services, and city administration were handled by a corporation. Luckily for the people of that story, the leaders were for the most part well-meaning, able to balance their love of profit with providing a quality service, there were others that weren't.

It's frightening when our country is run by the Bill Gateses and Dick Joneses who create their shitty operating systems and crappy war robots in the name of profit, and then screw everybody up the ass so they can make more profit.

Okay... enough movie metaphors!

[KernelPanic]

Humans are corrupted by money, power, greed and women very easily. Thats our main problem. Communism, Fascism and everything else inbetween ALL suck, because WE suck inherently. we struggle to act logically and cooperatively and thats why we're all doomed, but make an effort to enjoy life anyway  

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Tux ]

[Bazoukas]

You guys are playing with words as many people do. Bah.

 To the comments that Americans are idiots and yada yada. Way to go. Kudros for your high IQ. Have you actually lived and worked in America you midget brain? If you did then I think you didnt hang around with many people.

  Communism==Stalinism here in America. Those two words have been mixed up, simply because every country that had Communism(Stalinism in other words) had a goverment that wasnt worth a dogs pile of shit!!!

  For the most part Americans can distinguish the difference, but as I said, Communism has been so much abused that it got a black eye (long Live Stalin for example).

  Oh by the way your country sucks dick. Oh? Whats that? I dont know where you from or I never been there? It doesnt matter, I can talk shit about you from what little my stupid ass brain knows (did you get the sarcasm?)


  Anyway. I lived half of my life in Greece during its socialistic highs ( i havent been there for 7 years so i dont know whats going on there now).
  Socialism is not bad. You dont have as much liberties as in capitalism but in general its more "relaxed".

 Capitalism has more freedoms but its way more cruel than Socialism.

 Just my two worthless cents.

And to whomever made the remarks about whites Vs other Races and so on. Its true that whites are more wealthy but did you ever think the reasons?
I take exemption to the China, cause their goverment simply handicaps its self.
  But for the blacks for example. God bless us, the white Race, for fucking them (Both Europeans and Americans) so damn good, that they are still trying to get around all the shit they  been through cause of us. The MASTER white race.
.<Get the sarcasm?>.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]

[flap]

quote:Originally posted by bazoukas:
And to whomever made the remarks about whites Vs other Races and so on. Its true that whites are more wealthy but did you ever think the reasons?
I take exemption to the China, cause their goverment simply handicaps its self.
  But for the blacks for example. God bless us, the white Race, for fucking them (Both Europeans and Americans) so damn good, that they are still trying to get around all the shit they  been through cause of us. The MASTER white race.
.<Get the sarcasm?>.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]

Er, yes that was the point i was making.
Did you not get the sarcasm?

[zooloo]

In 1917 Russia was at the same level of development as India - post revolution it took off, so much for Communism = poor.

Great Britain was not capitalist, it was social-capitalist - until the 1980's when the social bit was dropped and we (the majority) are worse off than we were.  (Trains and pensions anyone?)

Competition may have founded civilisation but it is not civilised - co-operate or perish, that's socialism and that's right.

The open Source movement is socialist in principle and in practice.

We'll keep the red flag flying here!
   

zooloo/bob

[Calum]

we still call ourselves a liberal democracy (hah! even though we're a monarchy!)