Author Topic: The Punishment Due  (Read 1136 times)

worker201

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The Punishment Due
« on: 7 November 2003, 20:44 »
I was thinking -- Even tho Microsoft sucks, they have a right to do what they want, sorta.  If they want to make shitty operating systems, they can.  If they want to fully integrate the browser into the operating system, that may be ok too.  What they cannot do is corner the market with money and propaganda.

So how do we punish them?

You can't just dissolve the company, you can't assassinate Bill Gates, and you can't separate IE from Windows.  What can you do?

What would you do?  If you were the DOJ or the president or __________ (insert deity here), what actions would you take?

My suggestions:
1. force MS to release full documentation of its office formats (doc, xls, ppt), to remove the proprietary stranglehold on the office market.  This is not the same as giving up the source for Word and Excel, just allowing other software to fully support MS formats.
2. prevent Microsoft products from being mentioned in television, radio or print advertisements.  This applies across the board, whether its MSN, server solutions, Dell promotions, or even mentioning the Windows version of Flash MX. I guess that software resellers would be exempt from this, but who knows?

Open call for additional solutions, comments, criticisms.

Laukev7

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« Reply #1 on: 7 November 2003, 22:03 »
quote:
2. prevent Microsoft products from being mentioned in television, radio or print advertisements.  This applies across the board, whether its MSN, server solutions, Dell promotions, or even mentioning the Windows version of Flash MX. I guess that software resellers would be exempt from this, but who knows?


That would go against freedom of speech, and would be useless, since people use Microsoft products because they don't see other choices, not because of advertisement. Some people use their computers for years without even knowing what Windows is (at one time I didn't even know what Microsoft was!). A more logical solution would be to force them to pay their competitors' advertising, so that more people become aware of other available choices.

worker201

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« Reply #2 on: 8 November 2003, 02:52 »
Laws against child porn kinda infringe on free speech, too, but that's not the point here.  One possible reason people dont consider other options is that they dont know about them because they dont hear about them.  Yet Microsoft has an MSN or "Where do you want to go today?" commercial on nearly every single day.  People probably think that Dell and Gateway are the only computer makers too.  And may mistakenly believe that Ruffles and Doritos are competing brands.  Advertising is pretty powerful, and other companies besides Dell, Apple, Gateway and MS ought to take advantage of it.  Anyway, it was just an idea.

insomnia

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« Reply #3 on: 8 November 2003, 23:46 »
Making stock exchange ilegal.  ;)
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
R. Stallman

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cahult

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« Reply #4 on: 9 November 2003, 14:56 »
Why not forbid anyone to do anything and then go from there?  :D
"The gentleman is dead, the feminists killed him" Anonymous

Pissed_Macman

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« Reply #5 on: 9 November 2003, 16:03 »
The government stops child porn because it hurts people. Isn't Microsoft hurting people? How is taking food out of the mouths of rival corporations and causing software to make people's work harder any worse than any of that bad stuff the government always cracks down on.

solarismka

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« Reply #6 on: 10 November 2003, 21:06 »
If you want to solve the 'M$' problem.  All you have to do is install a different OS.  

go with OSX/BSD/Linux, whatever, just make the switch.

Then tell all your friends why you switched and why they should switch also.  Spread the word make the OS of choice a hero!

Get involoved with the community!  Help them grow!  Contribute to the wine project or any other open source project!

Simple!  :D
"Regime Change" starts at home!<p>Islam IS NOT the enemy! Against American Terrorism since Sept/11/2001<p>Jihad:<p>http://www.islamanswers.net/jihad/meaning.htm <p>new SuSE Linux User!<p><p>If your gonna point a finger at someone then at least have the proof to back you up!<p>trolls are idiots that demand attention by posting whatever is opposite to the theme to ruffle feathers to make people upset!<p>Often these same trolls always mention grammar/spelling since they have no intelligence of their own.

slave

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« Reply #7 on: 10 November 2003, 21:12 »
Richard Stallman has some good ideas on what should be done:

So I propose three remedies that would help enable  free software operating systems such as GNU/Linux compete technically while respecting users' freedom. These three remedies directly address the three biggest obstacles to development of free operating systems, and to giving them the capability of running programs written for Windows. They also directly address the methods Microsoft has said (in the "Halloween documents") it will use to obstruct free software. It would be most effective to use all three of these remedies together.

   1. Require Microsoft to publish complete documentation of all interfaces between software components, all communications protocols, and all file formats. This would block one of Microsoft's favorite tactics: secret and incompatible interfaces.

      To make this requirement really stick, Microsoft should not be allowed to use a nondisclosure agreement with some other organization to excuse implementing a secret interface. The rule must be: if they cannot publish the interface, they cannot release an implementation of it.

      It would, however, be acceptable to permit Microsoft to begin implementation of an interface before the publication of the interface specifications, provided that they release the specifications simultaneously with the implementation.

      Enforcement of this requirement would not be difficult. If other software developers complain that the published documentation fails to describe some aspect of the interface, or how to do a certain job, the court would direct Microsoft to answer questions about it. Any questions about interfaces (as distinguished from implementation techniques) would have to be answered.

      Similar terms were included in an agreement between IBM and the European Community in 1984, settling another antitrust dispute. See http://www.cptech.org/at/ibm/ibm1984ec.html.

   2. Require Microsoft to use its patents for defense only, in the field of software. (If they happen to own patents that apply to other fields, those other fields could be included in this requirement, or they could be exempt.) This would block the other tactic Microsoft mentioned in the Halloween documents: using patents to block development of free software.

      We should give Microsoft the option of using either self-defense or mutual defense. Self defense means offering to cross-license all patents at no charge with anyone who wishes to do so. Mutual defense means licensing all patents to a pool which anyone can join--even people who have no patents of their own. The pool would license all members' patents to all members.

      It is crucial to address the issue of patents, because it does no good to have Microsoft publish an interface, if they have managed to work some patented wrinkle into it (or into the functionality it gives access to), such that the rest of us are not allowed to implement it.

   3. Require Microsoft not to certify any hardware as working with Microsoft software, unless the hardware's complete specifications have been published, so that any programmer can implement software to support the same hardware.

      Secret hardware specifications are not in general Microsoft's doing, but they are a significant obstacle for the development of the free operating systems that can provide competition for Windows. To remove this obstacle would be a great help. If a settlement is negotiated with Microsoft, including this sort of provision in it is not impossible--it would be a matter of negotiation.

preacher

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« Reply #8 on: 10 November 2003, 19:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:


That would go against freedom of speech, and would be useless, since people use Microsoft products because they don't see other choices, not because of advertisement. Some people use their computers for years without even knowing what Windows is (at one time I didn't even know what Microsoft was!). A more logical solution would be to force them to pay their competitors' advertising, so that more people become aware of other available choices.



This is funny because this is what happened to the tobacco industry. So are you saying that was wrong?
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preacher

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« Reply #9 on: 10 November 2003, 19:34 »
Im certainly quite sick of hearing Microsoft paying cash settlements. They have enough money to pay everyone off and continue their monopoly forever. Instead they should open the source to DirectX to allow porting of games to Applications other than MS Windows.

Imagine a single disc that contains an installer for the Windows, Linux, and Mac version of a game. This would be for every game. For those with alternate platforms, porting would be easy, and the new features for video cards could be used everywhere. This would kill Microsoft. Why would anyone pay to use Microsoft windows if they had every available game available with a linux and mac version, and since linux and macs run a lot of games faster than windows, people could get better benchmarks.

[ November 10, 2003: Message edited by: ThePreacher ]

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xyle_one

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« Reply #10 on: 10 November 2003, 20:30 »
When i buy other products, they are all subject to testing and approval. Except software. You would think that something that milliosn of people depend on would have to be approved before use. If something breaks in your car, something that shouldnt be broken, it is recalled and fixed. Not software. Shit, my cdrw broke, and i was able to get a new one. Windows is full of broken code. It has proven itself unstable and buggy. It should be recalled. It is a danger to use the software. You run the risk of data loss, and corruption. That should be enough to have it taken of the streets.

worker201

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« Reply #11 on: 10 November 2003, 21:06 »
quote:
Originally posted by -=Solaris.M.K.A=-:
If you want to solve the 'M$' problem.  All you have to do is install a different OS.  

go with OSX/BSD/Linux, whatever, just make the switch.

Then tell all your friends why you switched and why they should switch also.  Spread the word make the OS of choice a hero!

Get involoved with the community!  Help them grow!  Contribute to the wine project or any other open source project!

Simple!   :D  




Well of course I am already doing that!  I got me some Suse and I'm getting an ibook later this month.  And I tell my friends why they should dump Windows.  And I bugtest nightly builds of Mozilla and contribute to gcc.  I wonder, tho, if everyone else here in the forums is practicing what they preach.

xyle_one

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« Reply #12 on: 10 November 2003, 21:49 »
i use osx exclusively. And i have redhat 9 installed. I rarely boot into windows. 1.5 years ago, i was a windows only guy. I thought linux was a hacker tool and thought all macs sucked. I have wisened up a bit sice then  ;)

solarismka

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« Reply #13 on: 11 November 2003, 00:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by Linux User #5225982375:
Richard Stallman has some good ideas on what should be done:

So I propose three remedies that would help enable  free software operating systems such as GNU/Linux compete technically while respecting users' freedom. These three remedies directly address the three biggest obstacles to development of free operating systems, and to giving them the capability of running programs written for Windows. They also directly address the methods Microsoft has said (in the "Halloween documents") it will use to obstruct free software. It would be most effective to use all three of these remedies together.

   1. Require Microsoft to publish complete documentation of all interfaces between software components, all communications protocols, and all file formats. This would block one of Microsoft's favorite tactics: secret and incompatible interfaces.

      To make this requirement really stick, Microsoft should not be allowed to use a nondisclosure agreement with some other organization to excuse implementing a secret interface. The rule must be: if they cannot publish the interface, they cannot release an implementation of it.

      It would, however, be acceptable to permit Microsoft to begin implementation of an interface before the publication of the interface specifications, provided that they release the specifications simultaneously with the implementation.

      Enforcement of this requirement would not be difficult. If other software developers complain that the published documentation fails to describe some aspect of the interface, or how to do a certain job, the court would direct Microsoft to answer questions about it. Any questions about interfaces (as distinguished from implementation techniques) would have to be answered.

      Similar terms were included in an agreement between IBM and the European Community in 1984, settling another antitrust dispute. See http://www.cptech.org/at/ibm/ibm1984ec.html.

   2. Require Microsoft to use its patents for defense only, in the field of software. (If they happen to own patents that apply to other fields, those other fields could be included in this requirement, or they could be exempt.) This would block the other tactic Microsoft mentioned in the Halloween documents: using patents to block development of free software.

      We should give Microsoft the option of using either self-defense or mutual defense. Self defense means offering to cross-license all patents at no charge with anyone who wishes to do so. Mutual defense means licensing all patents to a pool which anyone can join--even people who have no patents of their own. The pool would license all members' patents to all members.

      It is crucial to address the issue of patents, because it does no good to have Microsoft publish an interface, if they have managed to work some patented wrinkle into it (or into the functionality it gives access to), such that the rest of us are not allowed to implement it.

   3. Require Microsoft not to certify any hardware as working with Microsoft software, unless the hardware's complete specifications have been published, so that any programmer can implement software to support the same hardware.

      Secret hardware specifications are not in general Microsoft's doing, but they are a significant obstacle for the development of the free operating systems that can provide competition for Windows. To remove this obstacle would be a great help. If a settlement is negotiated with Microsoft, including this sort of provision in it is not impossible--it would be a matter of negotiation.



This would be great if that didn't steal their shit.  Even though m$ software has been undocumented, the fact is peopel reverse engineer it anyways.  Thus the the revelation of poor optomized stolen code.

Since it is 99% stolen, what patents are they gonna defend.

The only way I see to kill the ms giant is to use something else.  The rest of the damage they are doing is to themselves.  When Longwhore is in circualation and the restrictions and virii pissess off their users they are gonna be searching for a switch anyways.

So more power to us!
==================================

I love debuging wine. Although i'm getting into the freenet project now.
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"Regime Change" starts at home!<p>Islam IS NOT the enemy! Against American Terrorism since Sept/11/2001<p>Jihad:<p>http://www.islamanswers.net/jihad/meaning.htm <p>new SuSE Linux User!<p><p>If your gonna point a finger at someone then at least have the proof to back you up!<p>trolls are idiots that demand attention by posting whatever is opposite to the theme to ruffle feathers to make people upset!<p>Often these same trolls always mention grammar/spelling since they have no intelligence of their own.

TuxLinux

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« Reply #14 on: 12 November 2003, 01:56 »
"This would be great if that didn't steal their shit. Even though m$ software has been undocumented, the fact is peopel reverse engineer it anyways. Thus the the revelation of poor optomized stolen code."""

>>>>
>>>>>Since it is 99% stolen, what patents are they gonna defend."


I have a question, that in a way angers me.    :mad:   (furious ) If the 99 percent of the code is stolen correct? How can they  put patents on  the code  example: windows, IE ? Make a long EULA on someone elses work and call your (Microsoft) own?

 If  I was a programmer  and found my code in Microsoft . That they copyrighted as they made it.   Suppose I was very rich I would sue Microsoft out of existing.


How can they  do this? anyone?

[ November 11, 2003: Message edited by: TuxLinux ]