Miscellaneous > Intellectual Property & Law
Poll: Music Sharing or Stealing
flap:
quote:Not everyone agrees that copying music is sharing.
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How can it not be sharing? Even if you believe it's "stealing" as well, it's still sharing. If I literally steal things from someone and then give them away to people, I'm still sharing, even though I've done something morally wrong by stealing in the first place.
quote:What's the point if you have no garantee to make any profit, let alone enough money for a living?
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So bands have guaranteed financial success with the current system?
quote:It is not for Microsoft's success in selling Windows that we sue them, but because of the unsavoury business practices that led them to their position.
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Who are we to judge that their business practices are "unsavoury"? For the good of society we place restrictions on how businesses and individuals participate in the capitalist system - I just think those restrictions should be extended.
quote:In the same way, art cannot be information, because it has to be interpreted first. The comments about a piece of art, though, is information.
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That's irrelevant. I accept that art isn't functional information, but I don't see why freedom of speech should be restricted becuase of the nature of the 'information' being copied.
quote:RMS does propose free distribution, but paid with taxes. And he does not propose to forbid commercial redistribution.
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I can send you a link to a recording of a speech in which he talks about these ideas specifically if you want, so you can hear it from the horse's mouth.
quote:Wow. So then, neither businesses nor individuals will make any profit. How would you justify such a law? And even without businesses, you still have the sheer number of people giving away your music.
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No, I'm saying that commercial redistribution without the consent of the artist could be forbidden. That way people are still free to privately share the music but the artist has a monopoly on how it's sold. This is a restriction of freedom but not one that's a problem.
quote:I believe I have already explained that it is of their profit that they are being bereft.
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That's a very shaky concept. I could build a road somewhere and demand a toll for everyone who drove past. I could charge
HibbeeBoy:
quote:Originally posted by flap:
I'll explain why, whether you agree that it's morally right to copy or not, this is not "stealing". Firstly, why is stealing a problem? If you wake up in the morning and find your car has been stolen, why would this bother you? Is it because someone out there has a new car? No, obviously not; you're bothered because you no longer have one. The whole point of stealing is that it's about depriving someone of something they own. Copying doesn't leave the artist without their work, so even if you don't agree with it, copying is not analagous to theft.
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The car was recovered by the police and returned to you. Was it really stolen or were you just sharing your car ?
[ June 16, 2003: Message edited by: HibbeeBoy ]
Laukev7:
quote: How can it not be sharing?
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Because of the multiplicative nature of this distribution, it cannot be considered sharing. Playing a CD and listening to it with some friends is sharing. Copying it is not sharing; it is copying.
quote: So bands have guaranteed financial success with the current system?
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At least they get money for what they sell. And are you're assuming that your solution is the only one? I don't particularly like our current system, but that doesn't mean that giving music away is the best solution.
quote: I just think those restrictions should be extended.
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I live in Canada, and our business laws are more restrictive than in the USA (I don't know about UK). There are culture regulations here (ex. in Quebec 70% of the content on TV must be of French-speaking origin) and I could see the state regulating distribution in a more socialist country such as mine. But even here, practically giving music away without an alternative form of payment (adverts, taxes or other), and relying only on semi-charity is ridiculous.
Laukev7:
quote: I can send you a link to a recording of a speech in which he talks about these ideas specifically if you want
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Send it. I will comment on that.
quote: No, I'm saying that commercial redistribution without the consent of the artist could be forbidden.
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That's better, but not enough. Nothing garantees that anyone is going to buy from the artist or the official redistributors if they can get the music for free, or at least anymore than with our current system.
quote: it should be clear why using the term "theft" just because you feel there has been deprivation of profit is ridiculous.
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Then another term should be used. But the situation you described most certainly isn't sharing, and the fact remains that taking a taxi without paying is morally wrong.
flap:
quote:The car was recovered by the police and returned to you. Was it really stolen or were you just sharing your car ?
--- End quote ---
If they return it to you before you get up in the morning and miss it, then it's not so much of a problem, but there's still the fact that it's suffered wear and tear, had petrol used etc. i.e. it's directly incurred costs for you. The point is, if someone "took a copy" of your car somehow, then they wouldn't have stolen it; they'd have copied it.
quote:Because of the multiplicative nature of this distribution, it cannot be considered sharing. Playing a CD and listening to it with some friends is sharing. Copying it is not sharing; it is copying.
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If you can provide a dictionary definition of sharing that supports your suggestion that duplication of something somehow precludes it from being sharing, I'll agree with you.
quote:Nothing garantees that anyone is going to buy from the artist or the official redistributors if they can get the music for free, or at least anymore than with our current system.
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Why do you think anyone still buys CDs? As far as I can see it could be any of the following reasons:
1) People fear the legal consequences of copying - very unlikely. People have been illegally copying for years and they're aware that they're unlikely to be caught, yet you seem to think that if we remove these practically ineffectual legal restrictions then the fabric of society will collapse.
2) High speed access to the internet is still not particularly commonplace - much more likely. So people still have a need for the physical distribution of music on cd, for which there is still a market, then.
3) Artist loyalty - people feel a duty to reimburse their favourite artists for the music, or they'd feel guilty for copying it. Thus these people would probably happily contribute under the system described earlier - they'd end up paying literally no more than a 10th of what they do now, yet the artists would make more money.
quote:Then another term should be used. But the situation you described most certainly isn't sharing, and the fact remains that taking a taxi without paying is morally wrong.
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So do you accept that copying isn't stealing? And yes, I agree that not paying for a taxi is wrong - the point I was making was that even in a situation such as that where something is undoubtedly morally wrong, it's still incorrect to term it "stealing".
(Incidentally, just in case you're going to ask what the difference between not paying for a taxi and not paying for music is, in the case of the taxi ride the taxi driver does actually incur costs for every passenger that sits in his cab and so does actually require payment for every bit of service he provides. In the case of copying music, the situation of two people sharing audio files amongst each other is a transaction that doesn't cost the artist anything and doesn't even involve them.)
The rms speech is one from this page. I'll try to find which specific talk it is.
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