Author Topic: Does this make me a criminal?  (Read 5538 times)

Laukev7

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #30 on: 3 November 2003, 05:29 »
I agree that theft is not the correct legal term for copying, but it's incorrect to say that it only refers to taking someone's possession. That was my point. Words only carry the meaning we give to                 them.

Zombie9920

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #31 on: 3 November 2003, 05:33 »
I don't think that downloading a digital media file is stealing. It isn't like you are sticking somebodies' DVD disc(one they paid for) in your pocket and leaving with it.

Digital media files are nothing more than a copy of original work. When you download a digital media file you are obtaining a copy, you aren't taking the original. When you download a file the computer you are downloading it from is simply giving you a copy, the computer you are downloading from isn't losing the file(it doesn't get deleted from the file server computer).

To me, stealing is taking something from somebody and leaving them without the item you took.

In reply to Xeens' asking if it makes him a criminal. Not at all man, it isn't like you hurt anyone by downloading that movie. Besides, you have paid $$$ to see the movie so you should have the right to be able to see it whenever you want(so you can catch parts that you may've missed). ;P

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]


mobrien_12

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #32 on: 3 November 2003, 05:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:


For the last time, movies / music / paintings are NOT information. They are pieces of art. Don't compare apples and oranges.



Art is a subset of information.
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mobrien_12

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #33 on: 3 November 2003, 06:09 »
quote:

 I downloaded it to watch it again sometime because I think its not fair that I have to wait half a year or so before it's on DVD.



I'm not going to judge you, but since this is a very interesting discussion of ethics, may I offer a question in hopes of stimulating this discussion?

Will you buy the DVD  when it is released (if you intend to keep the copy you downloaded) or rent it at least once (if you intend to watch your downloaded copy only once or twice within a 24 hour period and then delete it)?

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: M. O'Brien ]

In brightest day, in darkest night, no evil shall escape my sight....

mobrien_12

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #34 on: 3 November 2003, 06:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:


Stealing an idea does not deprive anyone from his idea.




I'd like to comment on this.  "Stealing" an idea is really a form of plagurism.  When you use an original idea, without offering due credit to the originator of that idea, you deprive someone of credit, honor, reputation, and sometimes money.

I'm a scientist.  I want people to take my ideas and use them!  The qualifier is, they should footnote my work.  The more people use and footnote my work, the better my reputation becomes.  This provides me with job opportunities, opportunities at promotions, and better chances of getting grants.

I agree "stealing an idea" as it is called in the vernacular, does not deprive the original contributor of the idea.  However, it does deprive him or her of other things.  You don't really steal the idea as much as you steal credit for the idea.  

Unless we are talking about patents, when everything gets more complicated...

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: M. O'Brien ]

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Laukev7

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #35 on: 3 November 2003, 07:06 »
quote:
I agree "stealing an idea" as it is called in the vernacular, does not deprive the original contributor of the idea. However, it does deprive him or her of other things. You don't really steal the idea as much as you steal credit for the idea.


I am a science student, and I agree with that. My point was that the term 'stealing' is not limited to physical objects.

 
quote:
When you use an original idea, without offering due credit to the originator of that idea, you deprive someone of credit, honor, reputation, and sometimes money.



Yes, I agree with that.

 
quote:
Art is a subset of information.  


Art is not pure information. Art has to be interpreted in order to deduce meaningful information out of it. Art in itself is creation, not factual data.

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7 ]


Xeen

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #36 on: 3 November 2003, 07:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by M. O'Brien:

I'm not going to judge you, but since this is a very interesting discussion of ethics, may I offer a question in hopes of stimulating this discussion?

Will you buy the DVD  when it is released (if you intend to keep the copy you downloaded) or rent it at least once (if you intend to watch your downloaded copy only once or twice within a 24 hour period and then delete it)?


Well...I intend to watch the movie once again and then delete it. And if I'm ever bored and want a good movie I'll probably rent it one day. I also sent it to another friend of mine. However, I feel that is irrelevant for two reasons:

1. If I hadn't sent it to him, the chances of him renting that video when it came out are very little. And he's not gonna keep it either, just watch it once.

2. It's absolutely no different than this situation:
I rent the DVD when it comes out on DVD. My local video store gives you DVDs for a 5 day period. During those 5 days I have the complete right to give it to anyone else as long as I return it on time. So its the same as if I just lend someone my rented DVD during that time (legally).

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: xeen ]


mobrien_12

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #37 on: 3 November 2003, 07:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7:

My point was that the term 'stealing' is        not limited to physical objects.



Yes.  There are some intangibles that can be "stolen" even if the strict legal definition is limited to tangibles.

quote:

Art is not pure information. Art has to be interpreted in order to deduce meaningful information out of it. Art in itself is creation, not factual data.



Very interesting.

You know, I think that this is one of the most stimulating philosophical threads we've had on this board.
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slave

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #38 on: 3 November 2003, 08:03 »
If someone took credit for my work, I would call it lying, not stealing.  Still wrong, but a different thing, really.  Anyway it is rather beside the point, since nobody who copies a DVD would claim to have produced it!

Yeah, things like "he stole the show" or "you stole my idea" aren't correct use of the word.  They're just common expressions.  I couldn't get you convicted of theft if you made an outstanding acting performance during a play.    ;)  

What we really need to think about is whether copyright in its current form is really the best thing for society.  I for one believe it is far more harmful than good.  If there is to be copyright at all, it should at least be done in the spirit of the wishes of our founding fathers.  The framers felt copyright should only be allowed under the condition that it be used as a means to an end to promote social progress, *not* to simply reward authors.  I do not believe the current copyright regimes and mega-corporations promote social progress.

How far are the copyright and patent laws going to  to go until corporations own every single thought that goes on in your head, every tune, every image, every idea?  It needs to stop.

Case in point, just look at this article on slashdot.  What rubbish.

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: Linux User #5225982375 ]


M51DPS

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #39 on: 3 November 2003, 10:01 »
It's stealing if you deprive the owners of the money they're demanding for it. You would taking away profits.

Zombie9920

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #40 on: 3 November 2003, 10:17 »
How are you robbing them of profits? The movie is only out in the theaters right now so it isn't like you can go out and buy a copy. Now how are you depriving them of money if the product isn't even for sale when you download a copy of it?

Laukev7

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« Reply #41 on: 3 November 2003, 10:47 »
Because he won't pay for it once it comes out.

pofnlice

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #42 on: 3 November 2003, 11:45 »
I'm a Cop...Stealing can be defined in any dictionary you like.  However if you wanted the legal (as in the one viewed by the courts as the proper deffinition) check Blacks Law Dictionary.  Now as for is it a crime...  One must have a several things to determine whether a crime was committed.  Probable Cause - is there significant reason or facts present to beleive a crime has been or is being committed.  Reasonable belief - would a "reasonable" person (the average level headed joe in the world) beleive the act is wrong.

With those established, now you can move on  to the elements of the crime... A generic reference for crime elements as they pertain to theft are these.

Larceny
1. That the accused wrongfully took, obtained, or withheld certain property from the possesion of the owner or of any other person;

2.  That the property belonged to a certain person, agency or institution;

3.  That the property was of a certain value, or some value;  and

4.  That the taking, obtaining, or withholding by the accused was with the intent permanently to deprive or defraud another person, agency or institution of the use and benefit of the property or permanently to appropriate the property for the use of the accused or for any person, agency or institution other than the owner.

Within each element, all the words you may find "Questionable" have to be defined by a court.  These deffinitions can be found in Blacks Law Dictionary.  I ain't about to get them for you.

That is the letter of the law...as read, black and white, no exceptions...

Cops and Attourneys and Courts also know another side of the Law... It's called the "Spirit of the Law"

What that means is simply this...A law that says stop at a posted stop sign is for the safety6 of personell and property.  The letter of the law says you will always stop at the stop sign.  The spirit says at 3 am, there is no other traffic around, so it's OK to "roll" through it.  If a cop sees you roll through a stop sign at 3 am will he pull you over?  Probably.  Will he give you a ticket?  If he gets attitude or finds more wrong, then yes.  It is the discretion of the Officer and courts to determine applicablity of Letter vs Spirit.  This is how "Case Law" is produced.  A court finding that situations may not apply to certain laws by the letter, and exceptions are made.

Do I personally think it's stealing?  No.  As long as it is used at home and your copy remains in a destructable state.  Is that based on what I just described?  No.  It's personal Opinion.  I submitted the information concernin the "Legal Deffinition" of Larceny to stimulate factual debate based on Factual information.  We can not argue opinion or ethics on a forum that has international attendance based simply on cultures.  What Americans are brought up to beleive are certainly not what other nations beleive as far as rights and wrongs.  Ethics are determined by an individuals culture, up-bringings, parents, environment and his own comprehension of right and wrong.  Remember, perverted senses of ethics makes serial killers justify their actions as normal.
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Stilly

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #43 on: 3 November 2003, 11:54 »
wouldn't the actual criminal be the one who leaked the movie or somehow made an illegal copy. he is the one that ripped it off and hes pretty much given it to you so if anyone is breaking the law its him for distributing the movie
just say know

pofnlice

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Does this make me a criminal?
« Reply #44 on: 3 November 2003, 12:02 »
Now your starting to delv into the world of Conspiracy to commit larceny...that's where that belongs, legally the answer is yes.  

Here's another good one, using kazaa or whatever P2P to copy files is illegal.  But joining a network which shares is OK so far...Now, what if that person is "sharing" a legal authorized copy made by the manufacturer?  Why is that different than say Billy Bob sharing his copy of a copy?  Because the sharing of a copy is illegal, but a manufacturers copy isn't?  Aren't the both copies of a few originals really?  And as far as Originals go...isn't there actually only one original?
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