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How to make your Windows machine more stable and secure

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muzzy:
I thought you were the one complaining about IE. Also, it works pretty damn fine for me. You seem to have quite a talent in twisting "open source" into everything, completely sidestepping the real issues.

I'm merely pointing that IE isn't integrated to system any more than any other library. You could say that the default C library is a lot more deeply integrated into the system, as it's even harder to remove.

Calum:

--- Quote from: muzzy ---I thought you were the one complaining about IE. Also, it works pretty damn fine for me. You seem to have quite a talent in twisting "open source" into everything, completely sidestepping the real issues.
--- End quote ---
you say nothing, while throwing in a couple of "quick stabs" of your own. please elaborate.


--- Quote ---I'm merely pointing that IE isn't integrated to system any more than any other library. You could say that the default C library is a lot more deeply integrated into the system, as it's even harder to remove.
--- End quote ---
i know you said this, is this then another semantic discussion about what integrated means? i would rather avoid the whole thing, if that's what this is really about.

muzzy:
Ah, we get to "what do words mean" thing now? Fine, how about telling me how having a system library perform things is less secure design than having every application implement things themselves? I thought this "integration" was what bugged you about IE? Are you also annoyed about "integration" of zlib into linux, and how it made unmeasurable amount of applications insecure when a hole was found? Are you perhaps annoyed about how opengl is "integrated" into systems, too? I suspect not. Why only IE?

Regarding my quick stab, I was referring to "why not rely on the open source model and give everybody the benefit of the "best" way to do something" and how it completely ignores the issue of libraries. Once applications is written against a library, it needs a rewrite to work against a new solution if a "better" one comes around. Also, availability of an implementation to link/work against doesn't require open source in any way. Any advantages that opensource have are also available to proprietary solutions, as long as you have right to link against them. Microsoft is providing apis which are good, and people are free to use them or free to use "open" alternatives. I recall this wasn't the first time you've purposedly narrowed your views to favor your point of view, while ignoring a broader view. I might be guilty of the same too in some posts though, not sure. It just annoyed me quite a bit here as we seem to be talking about completely different things which only touch each other slightly.

Calum:
seemingly.

shame that is a cause for annoyance with you, considering  annoyance does nothing to further the discussion.

i am not convinced that APIs can be considered to be as good as having full read access. sometimes they will be, but that's at the discression of the publisher of those APIs. and if the API is required to write good software, and the company publishing the APIs has an interest in outdoing their competition, then there's a motive for publishing incomplete specs right there.

not saying this happens, just that the model is not very good when taken in the real world.

muzzy:
Talking about different things and pretending they're about same subject doesn't further discussion either.

This whole thing started from jtpenrod's comment: "It takes a crowbar and a case of dynamite to pry Inter-nut Expl-Horror from Win-Doesn't". I was trying to argue that this isn't the case, and that any issues that result from removal of IE are not specific to IE but rather apply to all library type entities.

You're welcome to ditch IE, but third party apps might expect it's there. Microsoft doesn't want you to remove it because of these dependency issues, so you have to do some little work to get rid of it.

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