Author Topic: Is this not bullshit?  (Read 1325 times)

Orethrius

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Is this not bullshit?
« on: 22 March 2005, 14:47 »
This in response to the Berkeley PTA decision to change the name of Thomas Jefferson Elementary School because Jefferson owned slaves.  Oh for Christ's sake.  While we're at it, why not do away with the Washington Monument and Lincoln Memorial?  Why not run to Mount Vernon and piss on that "bastard slave-owner Washington's" house?  As if subjugating the birthdays of the greatest men in this nation to a single holiday wasn't bad enough, now we're going to dwell on the character flaws of the men to whom we OWE our existence as a viable nation?!?!?  Check your history books.  Most colonists of the time owned slaves, that doesn't degradate what they did for us.  It's this kind of thing that just pisses me off.  

Only in the USA.  
Only in California.
Somebody get me the fuck OUT of this ass-backwards state.

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Calum

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #1 on: 22 March 2005, 16:19 »
so owning slaves is alright, then?
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Orethrius

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #2 on: 22 March 2005, 16:22 »
Quote from: Calum
so owning slaves is alright, then?

Not at all, but do you use a flaw - a part of the economy, at the time - to write off the beneficial events that have taken place at the hands of the same person? It's hardly fair to use the sin to write off the positive accomplishments of the sinner, yet that's precisely what's taking place here.

Maybe I'm wrong to not expect a witch hunt of our elders in this modern age.

EDIT: The thought crosses my mind about how ridiculous this whole thing really is, considering this is a majority African-American school; if it weren't for Jefferson - and the document he signed (read: the Constitution) - there would've been no legal basis for sufferage and equal rights. If not for that one base document, a lot of these same students would be doing the work of their ancestors, being horse-whipped if they said anything but "yessuh" to their owners. It's a damned shame that a school is rebelling against a man that is a primary reason why its students are today  free from bondage.
« Last Edit: 22 March 2005, 16:30 by Orethrius »

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Calum

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #3 on: 22 March 2005, 17:17 »
Quote from: Orethrius

Maybe I'm wrong to not expect a witch hunt of our elders in this modern age.


i am glad you took the opportunity to reply to my question, since it makes your position much clearer for those who might have misunderstood you.

i quoted you above though, because i wanted to say you aren't (in my opinion) *wrong* to expect this, but perhaps people expect things to get better over time (like people being less prejudiced and so on) but we are kind of blind to the ways we do that. our society started this whole political correctness thing so we wouldn't offend blacks, women, fatties, shorties, people of any ethnic origin other than our own and people with any kind of disability and so on, and political correctness has worked to a point, but now political correctness, and positive discrimination and so on is in danger of becoming (sometimes, in other cases, it's still very much required) an area of resentment for some people, either renewing old prejudices or creating new ones.

recently in these forums (and this is quite a good example i think) somebody said somebody else's delivery of information was similar to that of hitler. the point was fairly well made and referred to hitler's oratory skills, compared with the poster's literary skills, however some people did not see this far, because they expect any phrase with the word "hitler" in it, to be some sort of insult, rather than the comparison of styles that i believe it was intended to be.

just like the misuse of the word "nazi" on the internet nowadays. when a discussion board administrator applies the editorial scissors liberally, he or she is referred to as a "nazi", while nazi is actually short for "National Socialist", somebody who wants to expand their country and level the field for the people who live in it (my view of this is irelevant, the point is, this definition doesn't apply to censorship). a better phrase might be "fascist", but a proper phrase would be "totalitarian". nobody says "totalitarian" though, they say "nazi" because when our grandparents were risking their lives in their youths, they weren't fighting the "totalitarians", they were fighting the "nazis"!. and so the modern meaning of "nazi" is completely emotional, and has no basis in reality.

and this is what is happening with jefferson and the slaves. it's like saying having a president who is an adulterer is wrong (although they've had a couple of those in the USA, and they haven't had any woman presidents yet, so i wonder which it is wronger to be...).

and basically while i have waffled a lot about this, i agree with you, the world runs on bullshit and it would be nice to clean it off and see some sense underneath sometimes.
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bedouin

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #4 on: 22 March 2005, 17:35 »
It's their school.  If they feel uncomfortable with the name, go ahead and change it.

And there's a big difference between slavery and adultery, namely that one is a crime against society as a whole.  Claiming that cheating is the equivalent to enslaving an entire race is a pretty big leap.  

For African-Americans, your 'elders' are hardly representatives of high morality; they're more reminders of a dark past, and that representation has not really changed drastically over the past 400 years.

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Calum

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #5 on: 22 March 2005, 21:31 »
i do think your points are valid, but i think what orethrius is saying is that jefferson did not stand for slavery and in fact signed the constitution (which was a step towards abolishing slavery? is this right?).

like how people quote sigmund freud all the time even though he admitted that a lot of his conjectures were rubbish later in his life, he no longer should stand for "freudian psychology" by and large despite people's opinions.
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bedouin

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #6 on: 23 March 2005, 03:09 »
Quote from: Calum
i do think your points are valid, but i think what orethrius is saying is that jefferson did not stand for slavery and in fact signed the constitution (which was a step towards abolishing slavery? is this right?)


He owned slaves, and never freed them before his death.

Calum

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #7 on: 23 March 2005, 19:36 »
really? i must admit to not knowing much about him, but if that's the case, then i can fully understand the reasons behind this, although i also see the side of the argument that says "what's in a name".
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Stilly

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #8 on: 23 March 2005, 23:57 »
Quote from: Calum
really? i must admit to not knowing much about him, but if that's the case, then i can fully understand the reasons behind this, although i also see the side of the argument that says "what's in a name".


a crash course in jefferson: he was the third president of the US, wrote the declaration of independance, did a lot of writing in the constitution, strong believer in states rights, bought the louisiana purchse, making the US a hell of a lot bigger, also a democrat, but not the modern kind

he was also a rich virginian like just about any big politician of the time and he owned a plantation and used slave labor as was the accepted practice of the time
just say know

Orethrius

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #9 on: 24 March 2005, 07:29 »
Quote from: Stilly
a crash course in jefferson: he was the third president of the US, wrote the declaration of independance, did a lot of writing in the constitution, strong believer in states rights, bought the louisiana purchse, making the US a hell of a lot bigger, also a democrat, but not the modern kind

he was also a rich virginian like just about any big politician of the time and he owned a plantation and used slave labor as was the accepted practice of the time

That's precisely my point though.  Apparently, a government-sanctioned entity (that is to say, the PTA of that particular school) find it more pertinent to sling mud at someone who made the nation what it is today, over something that was a widely accepted practice at the time.  I guess the message the action carries is this: be wary of the norm of your time, for given time, it may serve to nullify the legitimacy of your philantrophies.  THAT kind of thing pisses me off.  

But then,  'tis a fickle thing, the human memory.

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MrX

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #10 on: 24 March 2005, 16:42 »
boring.

Orethrius

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #11 on: 24 March 2005, 17:35 »
Let us see what fascinating insight Mr. X lends to this conversation:

Quote from: MrX
boring.

Oh.

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Calum

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #12 on: 24 March 2005, 21:31 »
Quote from: MrX
boring.



look, fuckass, if you think it's boring, don't fucking read it.

seriously.

i mean considering the average interest factor in virtually ALL of your posts, it's breathtaking that you could seriously make a comment this pathetic.




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MrX

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #13 on: 25 March 2005, 01:40 »
im cool with that.

Mr X

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Re: Is this not bullshit?
« Reply #14 on: 25 March 2005, 03:56 »
I see Orethrius' point with this, it is retarded to change every peice of history just for stupid little mistakes. Thats just hiding history that happened, why not just abolish the word slavery and the idea, and any peice of information or history backing it. Oh Yes! That Sounds Like A Bright Idea, because its not like mankind has ever repeated a mistake, especially one they never knew of.

Yea, its fucking bullshit of course, we need to respect history.