Author Topic: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?  (Read 11643 times)

piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #60 on: 2 May 2005, 23:30 »
Quote from: toadlife
If the design is better then more complexity can be acceptable. Vehicles of today versus vehicles from 20 years ago are a prime exmaple of ever increasing complexity of design not hampering quality.
Fair enough.
BUT: nobody (I hope) needs to understand the complexities of their vehicle to make it run stable without crashing, do they?
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toadlife

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #61 on: 3 May 2005, 01:05 »
First of all, piratepenquin, my apologies for the 'herd' comment, and the assumtion that you don't know anything about Linux. Those were low blows.

I'll be quoting a few different people here, so bear with me....



Quote
The question, though, is the design better? Now I can show you lots of highly complex circuits for audio amplifiers which are quite complex. Indeed, it looks like the end result of a competition for the "fanciest" design. However, not a single one has the performance of a simple design that originated in 1964 (which, in turn, was adapted from a far older design from the "glass FET" days) when it is implemented correctly. Complexity for the sake of complexity is a marketing ploy, nothing more.

The superior design of german weaponry during during WWII is a prime example which actually makes your point. Germany designed weaponry that was too expensive and time consuming to build, and their weapons suffered from reliability issue which American and Russian weapory didn't. That said, I won't (and didn't) say the Window's more complicated design makes it better. My experience is that WIdnows more complicated design can definitely lead to issues, but they are not at all insurmountable.

Quote
No! This is not a "personal problem" for piratePenguin or anyone else.

I'd have to respectfully disagree here. I think is was a personal problem, and mr piratepenquin solved it by switching to Linux. Good for him.

Quote
The documentation for Win-Doesn't is horrible. Just this morning, I saw yet another advert from someone calling himself the "Video Professor". He was advertising his latest version of Windows training CDs. This guy has been in business for at least five years now, doing the very same thing. Furthermore, these adverts do not appear on your run-of-the-mill "prime time" TV stations, but rather on specialized stations whose audience is presumeably above average in intelligence, and professional folks. Once again, the Windows user has no choice but to turn to yet another third party provider to compensate for the manifest inadequacies of this "operating" system. It is unacceptable that there is nothing comparable to the Linux Documenation Project.

Ha! I laugh at your assumtion that the Linux Documetation Project would help out your average computer user who doesn't even know what an "Operating System" is.

Quote
It is doubly unacceptable that the documentation for Winderz remains so piss-poor that the Video Professor could still be in business.

The problem is not about the quality of the documetation at all. I've found the built in help facilities of XP/2000/2003 to be quite helpful over the years. The problem is that the average use simply refuses to "RTFM". People want to be told and shown how to do things with minimal effort on their part. This is why the Video Professor series is a viable product. I will concede that when you get into the more advanced documetation Microsoft provides a lot of it can be inadequate. Sometimes their higer level docs can read like PHD thesis papers - they assume you already know a ton of things. Also, at times, their documentation is incomplete and little things are left out. These little things they don't bother to mention can cause big headaches. I had this experience most recently with Microsoft's documentation of RIS. Microoft's SQL server documentation is also really tough. It basically assumes that you are alredy a guru a transact SQL, and you fully understand every advanced concept related to SQL database systems. On the other side of things, I've not seen documentation for Linux or BSD that is any more user friendly than the documentation available for Windows. Many times, fully understanding what man _x says requires you to also read man page _y, and man page _z, and man page _r, and so on. The biggest issue I've even had with Microsoft documetation was FINDING the relevant articles. Microsoft's internal web site search is pure CRAP. Thank god you can use Google to search their site.

Quote
Well actually, seeing as my system doesn't suffer hard lock-ups at all, and it did back on Windows, and GNU/Linux is running perfectly here, I'd say GNU/Linux would do far better than Windows. Prove me wrong.

That's a rather unreasonable request o make, unless you want to send me your system via airmail with return postage. ;)

Quote
"cheap hardware", I doubt it. Anyhow, I guess that means GNU/Linux is better here?

Yep. I agree that, in general, overall driver stability in Linux and BSD is superior to Windows. That said, a quality hardware setup in Windows can be just as stable as any Linux box.

Quote
However, given that making Windows completely stable (I have yet to breach a 30-day uptime with it) is quite the feat, you would be certainly in the upper .000001%

It's not quite the feat if your hardware is adequate. Have alook at my uptime stats. You'll notice two Windows machines on there which have very high loads, and uptimes that are much longer than 30 days. These Windows machines have NEVER crashed. The IIS5 box has been deployed for three years now. I also urge you to take a look at the uptimes for other people's Windows machines. I guess that upper .0000001% must ALL use this site? Note - the uptime site seems to be broke at this moment.


Quote
But that BSoD can't happen, and you can't have any malfunctioning drivers that can't be recoded. Ah, now the FUN sets in, doesn't it?
Fun? Is that fun in an S&M way? I'm well aware of the issues that can arise out of close source drivers. It took Creative around three years to write a stable driver for their SB Live! series. THey finally did manage to pump out a stable driver a couple of years ago and the issues that came with it finally stopped for good. I did have my FreeBSD box lock up a few times while playing AAO using that damn SB Live card, so I sometimes wonder if the hardware is just poorly designed and the stable Windows driver that creative finally came out with had a very large number of hacks written into it to compensate for the hardware's problems. I ended up canning that card and using the integraded audio on my MB.
:)

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #62 on: 3 May 2005, 01:32 »
Quote from: jtpenrod
If the design is better then more complexity can be acceptable.

The question, though, is the design better? Now I can show you lots of highly complex circuits for audio amplifiers which are quite complex. Indeed, it looks like the end result of a competition for the "fanciest" design. However, not a single one has the performance of a simple design that originated in 1964 (which, in turn, was adapted from a far older design from the "glass FET" days) when it is implemented correctly. Complexity for the sake of complexity is a marketing ploy, nothing more.


Well we don't call them glass FETs any more we now call them vacuum tubes or valves, their real name it thermionic tubes. They are the the best amplifiers around, yes even today the modern op-amp has yet to match their performance (although we're pretty damn close). Valves aren't used much these days because transistors are cheaper lighter and will do the same job in just about every application where valves were previously used. Today valves are only used in very high quality audio amplifiers because they're less noisy than transistors and high power transmitters (the magnetron in a microwave oven is a vacuum tube) because transistors are very poor at high frequencyies and power levels.

Oh, sorry for boring you all as a rambled on about electronics for long enough. Yes it is true that some of the simpler designs are the best but this isn't always the case. If you build the simplest FM transmitter possible consisting of a 1 transistor colpitts oscillator it will be very unstable compared to a high quality stereo transmitter built with a special purpose IC containing I don't know how many 100s possibly 1000s of transistors. Having said this the simpler design is far easier to troubleshoot and cheaper in general so which one you use will depend on the application.

Oh and vacuum tube circuits aren't that simple to build apart from being big and bulky there're high voltages and other hazards. I could show you a simple reasonable quality amplifier design with 5 transisters that would be far easier to build than any design using valves.
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

Jenda

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #63 on: 3 May 2005, 01:47 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
Fair enough.
BUT: nobody (I hope) needs to understand the complexities of their vehicle to make it run stable without crashing, do they?

:D Good damn point. Finally someone with my views and more to back them up with. Go Pirate!

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #64 on: 3 May 2005, 01:51 »
Yes the same with your audio amplifier. :D
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

jtpenrod

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #65 on: 3 May 2005, 03:59 »
Today valves are only used in very high quality audio amplifiers because they're less noisy than transistors...

I strongly suspect fad appeal here. As they say, "First impressions are lasting impressions", and the first solid state audio amps blew chunks. That hasn't been true for a very long time now.

One of these "very high quality" audio amps is the Cary CAD-300SEI triode amplifier. This has a 2A3 power triode connected as a Class A(1) amp. Being asymetrical, it lets through even as well as odd order harmonics. That's not a good design as it has 3% THD at 9 Watts, at a cost of $3400. It is easy to get the THD down to 0.001% with solid state at a fraction of that cost. I'll bet they're still laughing all the way to the bank on that one.  :D

While the valves themselves may have outstanding linearity, you then ruin it by connecting them to a very non-linear silicon steel core transformer. As these are low gain devices, there isn't enough open loop gain for sufficient inverse feedback to linearize that transformer. Nor is the necessary construction (big steel core and lots of wire) for good low frequency response good for high frequency response where the core losses really build up, and the stray capacitance of all that wire interferes with high frequency operation. Given that, solid state clearly is better. The clueless audiophile who gets ripped off to the tune of $3400 for inferior tech isn't going to do anything other than rave on about how much "better" his "valve" amp is. It's too painful to admit the obvious: He wuz had. (Yeah, he's a lot like the typical Windows XP user in that regard. ;)  )

If you build the simplest FM transmitter possible consisting of a 1 transistor colpitts oscillator it will be very unstable compared to a high quality stereo transmitter built with a special purpose IC containing I don't know how many 100s possibly 1000s of transistors. Having said this the simpler design is far easier to troubleshoot and cheaper in general so which one you use will depend on the application.

That isn't what I was referring to. In this case, additional complexity solves a problem: frequency stability and base band sound quality at the receiver. It's not the same thing as adding more and more bullshit "features" that the vast majority of users won't use, or which serve no real purpose, to an op-sys, for no other reason than to point to the "latest and greatest" in order to get the customer to buy something he doesn't need. Given the typical computer useage, Win 95 is more than sufficient for the vast majority of users.

Ha! I laugh at your assumtion that the Linux Documetation Project would help out your average computer user who doesn't even know what an "Operating System" is.

Then they shouldn't be using computers. After all, is it reasonable to expect to buy a set of clubs, a sleeve of balls, and shoot par if you've never held a golf club before? Is it reasonable to expect to fly your new Cessna off the show-room floor if you've never spent any time with a flight instructor? Why in the HELL should it be any different when it comes to computers? Again, this was a marketing ploy: convince folks out there that they did not have to "pay their dues" before joining the computer "revolution" by learning even a little something about it first. We're all paying for it as these are the yutzes who click on those "p0rn pics" in peculiar E-Mails from strangers. The folks who continue to support companies that make billions off the clueless who think that it's perfectly normal to have to reboot every half-hour, or that it's normal to expect to lose your hard work every now and then. Ford, GM, Crysler, etc. would have been sued out of existance a long time ago if their products were even 1.0% as defective as the Windows "operating" system.
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piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #66 on: 3 May 2005, 04:30 »
Who would/wouldn't agree with the following statement:
Quote from: me
There are stable and secure Windows systems, but this is rare. Most Windows systems are unstable and insecure.
There are unstable and insecure GNU/Linux systems, but this is rare. Most GNU/Linux systems are stable and secure.
?
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #67 on: 3 May 2005, 04:59 »
Quote
I'd have to respectfully disagree here. I think is was a personal problem, and mr piratepenquin solved it by switching to Linux. Good for him.
It might well be a personal problem, and I see where you're coming from.
BUT: Microsoft is also partially to blame (BTW, the rants on that site are pure class IMO).

Now, I used Windows for approx. five years. I'm still (undoubtably) the best Windows user for miles (well.. I do live in the country, heh). I know alot about the OS (well, actually, it seems I don't. But I know hundreds of times more than some ppl that've had me over to fix their retarded OS), but I've barely ever (if ever) used a Windows system that a sane, half-educated computer user could call stable.
By contrast, I've never (ever!) used a GNU/Linux system that a sane, half-educated computer user could call unstable.
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
 - Noah And The Whale: Give a little love



a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

toadlife

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #68 on: 3 May 2005, 05:19 »
I've seen that site before. Read his piece on BSD, and you'll see why I like it so much.
:)

piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #69 on: 3 May 2005, 18:01 »
Quote from: toadlife
I've seen that site before. Read his piece on BSD, and you'll see why I like it so much.
I read that piece on BSD when I switched from GNU/Linux to FreeBSD not so long ago (that's how I discovered the site).
Didn't stay on FreeBSD for too long tho, couldn't get ISDN working (even tho I know it is possible, just not for me, yet).
I'll more than likely give it another go soon enough (during the Summer holidays).

I'd still like to know some ppls (especially Windows users) reactions to this:
Quote from: me!
There are stable and secure Windows systems, but this is rare. Most Windows systems are unstable and insecure.
 There are unstable and insecure GNU/Linux systems, but this is rare. Most GNU/Linux systems are stable and secure.
'Cause I think it's almost time to draw up a conclusion.
We can do it quick, and pray that muzzy never returns, and live happily ever after :thumbup:
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
 - Noah And The Whale: Give a little love



a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

BobTheHob

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #70 on: 3 May 2005, 18:22 »
[OFFTOPIC]@toadlife: thats the sweetest fucking avatar I have ever seen[/OFFTOPIC]
The meaning of my username "BobTheHob":
It is well known that "Bob" is a nickname for robert in modern times, a lesser known nickname for robert is that of "Hob". Hob is a nickname for robert from the "Middle English" dialect. This is the version of english spoken and written around the late middle ages. Thus my username can be percieved like "RobertTheRobert" which is redundant. As I always like to say "Simplicity in redundancy, and elegance in simplicity".

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #71 on: 3 May 2005, 19:15 »
Quote from: jtpenrod
Today valves are only used in very high quality audio amplifiers because they're less noisy than transistors...

I strongly suspect fad appeal here. As they say, "First impressions are lasting impressions", and the first solid state audio amps blew chunks. That hasn't been true for a very long time now.

One of these "very high quality" audio amps is the Cary CAD-300SEI triode amplifier. This has a 2A3 power triode connected as a Class A(1) amp. Being asymetrical, it lets through even as well as odd order harmonics. That's not a good design as it has 3% THD at 9 Watts, at a cost of $3400. It is easy to get the THD down to 0.001% with solid state at a fraction of that cost. I'll bet they're still laughing all the way to the bank on that one.  :D

While the valves themselves may have outstanding linearity, you then ruin it by connecting them to a very non-linear silicon steel core transformer. As these are low gain devices, there isn't enough open loop gain for sufficient inverse feedback to linearize that transformer. Nor is the necessary construction (big steel core and lots of wire) for good low frequency response good for high frequency response where the core losses really build up, and the stray capacitance of all that wire interferes with high frequency operation. Given that, solid state clearly is better. The clueless audiophile who gets ripped off to the tune of $3400 for inferior tech isn't going to do anything other than rave on about how much "better" his "valve" amp is. It's too painful to admit the obvious: He wuz had. (Yeah, he's a lot like the typical Windows XP user in that regard. ;)  )


Do you know what? I've never really thought about it, I just acepted that valves are more linear than transistors. Having said that nothing beats traveling wave tubes, klystrons and magnetrons in low noise high powered VHF and microwave amplifier and oscilator applications.

Quote from: jtpenrod

If you build the simplest FM transmitter possible consisting of a 1 transistor colpitts oscillator it will be very unstable compared to a high quality stereo transmitter built with a special purpose IC containing I don't know how many 100s possibly 1000s of transistors. Having said this the simpler design is far easier to troubleshoot and cheaper in general so which one you use will depend on the application.

That isn't what I was referring to. In this case, additional complexity solves a problem: frequency stability and base band sound quality at the receiver. It's not the same thing as adding more and more bullshit "features" that the vast majority of users won't use, or which serve no real purpose, to an op-sys, for no other reason than to point to the "latest and greatest" in order to get the customer to buy something he doesn't need. Given the typical computer useage, Win 95 is more than sufficient for the vast majority of users.


Fair enough, but I wouldn't say Windows 95, maybe they'd put up with some NT Windows 95 is just far too unstable. :D
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

toadlife

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #72 on: 3 May 2005, 20:30 »
Quote from: BobTheHob
[OFFTOPIC]@toadlife: thats the sweetest fucking avatar I have ever seen[/OFFTOPIC]

YEah. It's funny, but very offensive to some people at the same time. I don't normally like to use it, because it can really offend people, and I really don't dislike Linux - I just really like the BSDs.

Here is the source. I don't know who the original author is.

:)

BobTheHob

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #73 on: 3 May 2005, 21:19 »
Quote from: toadlife
YEah. It's funny, but very offensive to some people at the same time. I don't normally like to use it, because it can really offend people, and I really don't dislike Linux - I just really like the BSDs.

Here is the source. I don't know who the original author is.

Thats great, yea, I'm the same way, I love BSD. I dunno if you like it or not but here is a background I got from a Russian site that I use on all my BSD boxes http://img51.echo.cx/img51/7808/bpimg018yj.jpg

The site has mostly BSD backgrounds but it has some linux and Mac OS as well. http://usunet.ru/ug/thumbnails.php?album=11 they also have a background featuring the BSD convention girl, whom I know alot of you are partial to :D
The meaning of my username "BobTheHob":
It is well known that "Bob" is a nickname for robert in modern times, a lesser known nickname for robert is that of "Hob". Hob is a nickname for robert from the "Middle English" dialect. This is the version of english spoken and written around the late middle ages. Thus my username can be percieved like "RobertTheRobert" which is redundant. As I always like to say "Simplicity in redundancy, and elegance in simplicity".

WMD

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #74 on: 3 May 2005, 22:21 »
You mean my BSD convention girl? :bsd:
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