Author Topic: Image File Execution Options  (Read 3532 times)

muzzy

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 391
  • Kudos: 409
    • http://muzzy.net/
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #15 on: 6 April 2005, 19:24 »
Quote from: Orethrius
Yes, and God knows people don't download MP3s, either.  I'll continue to use FOSS in absentia of a lawful government, and if you don't care to do the same you know where to stick that EULA.  :p


I'll skip the previous points made by you and stick to this. I know people are still going to use the software that's out there even if it becomes illegal. However, development will more than likely halt. Are you going to risk your life by writing rogue software? We'll see what you say about that when you get those two million fines. This will basically destroy a lot of free software, maybe the whole free software movement. You'll no longer be free to write any software you want to, which means the core point, freedom, has been eliminated. There's no free software without freedom.

Quote from: Orethrius

Too bad current disassemblers are such amazing horseshit.  :p


I don't know where you've gotten this idea about disassemblers, but current disassemblers are amazing stuff. They totally kick ass, and by saying otherwise I can only suspect you've never used one. Or perhaps, you lack the skills to use one, and would rather blame it on the tools.

Aloone_Jonez

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,090
  • Kudos: 954
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #16 on: 6 April 2005, 19:43 »
I don't see how they're going to be able to force a ban on a piece of free software that infringes patents. If they did in say Europe and the United States couldn't they just move development to Asia, Africa, or Australia or New Zealand?
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

muzzy

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 391
  • Kudos: 409
    • http://muzzy.net/
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #17 on: 6 April 2005, 20:07 »
Yes, you could move development elsewhere until software patent laws get there as well. However, you'd still lose your freedoms here, and couldn't participate into the development. Let's see how you feel when you can't get your favourite linux software from your package management system anymore.

Aloone_Jonez

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,090
  • Kudos: 954
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #18 on: 6 April 2005, 20:34 »
That would be shit.

But how could they prove where the software is actually being developed?

It will never be illegal everywhere, and someone from the UK could easily send some software to someone else in India  in encrypted form then it can be made available for download from the Indian site.

They're having a hard enough time policing pirate software not to mention child pornography. I can't see the law enforcement agencies putting the same resources in to banned software as they do to paedophiles or even pirate software. Not to mention both of these activities are illegal in most countries, I somehow can't see software patents taking over the world. I feel that enforcing software patents would be a nightmare.

Well on second thoughts software patents would make Windows illegal since everything implemented in Windows has already been done before so all Microsoft's patents are void anyway. I'm not worrying about silly software patents anyway I don't think anyone else should be.
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

anphanax

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 197
  • Kudos: 11
    • http://june.tripod.com
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #19 on: 6 April 2005, 21:48 »
I've never seen anything quite like this.

I prayed the machine would somehow magically be fixed, tried something different that just occurred to me at that moment, and VIOLA! Got into SAFE MODE! Did a system restore and everything is working great again.

What I did:
Tried running Safe Mode /w Command Prompt, and held down arrow keys while the drivers were loading. Safe mode wouldn't boot (kept hanging on mups.sys) earlier, so no clue... And @ those interested, yeah, earlier I let the system sit FOREVER. CTRL+ALT+DEL wouldn't work after the mups.sys thing, so it WAS HUNG.

Let this be a lesson to others. If you're going to do something that might be "dangerous" to the system, make sure you have a BACKUP FIRST. Also, re-installing windows isn't always the best solution. If you keep trying, you're bound to get somewhere eventually :).

KernelPanic

  • VIP
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,878
  • Kudos: 222
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #20 on: 6 April 2005, 21:51 »
Quote from: muzzy
Yea, after the council presidency accepted the fscking thing without majority vote, breaking the council's rules in the process. The bill in EU has constantly been smuggled into "agriculture & fisheries" council sessions, to be decided by people who don't know anything about it, without discussion allowed. When the states required it be changed to discussion item, Luxembourg made up crap on the spot saying it wouldn't be possible for procedural reasons.

Basically, the EU Council Presidency conned the rest of the council, with a malicious intent. I'd like to believe this is just mere incompetence, but why would they repeatedly try to push the software patent issue to be decided by agriculture guys, and other crap like that? I'm suspecting some guys there have been bribed. We should do the same. Spread this url: http://mjr.iki.fi/texts/patentfund



:( :( :( :(
Contains scenes of mild peril.

jtpenrod

  • VIP
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 675
  • Kudos: 105
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #21 on: 6 April 2005, 23:42 »
Quote

I'll skip the previous points made by you and stick to this. I know people are still going to use the software that's out there even if it becomes illegal. However, development will more than likely halt. Are you going to risk your life by writing rogue software? We'll see what you say about that when you get those two million fines. This will basically destroy a lot of free software, maybe the whole free software movement. You'll no longer be free to write any software you want to, which means the core point, freedom, has been eliminated. There's no free software without freedom.


If programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program.  :p

They can have my comppiler when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.  :p  :p

But seriously, should this happen, then, all progress stops and the whole technology will stagnate. Of course, not everyone will go along with this, and probably the Chinese, Indians, and/or Pakistanis will have been handed technology leadership that won't be coming back to either the US or EU, should either/or be stupid enough to pull a stunt like that.

However, given the dumbasses we have in gov't, I wouldn't exactly bet against it.
Live Free or Die: Linux
If software can be free, why can't dolphins?

muzzy

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 391
  • Kudos: 409
    • http://muzzy.net/
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #22 on: 7 April 2005, 00:21 »
I don't quite like idea of a world where programmers have to distribute their patch submissions on private encrypted rings, and have to post under pseudonyms through a chain of remailers to protect their identities. Interesting enough, this will most likely happen, and free programmers will be in the same boat than child pornographers and the bunch. It'll get really interesting since free programmers will have the capability to design and implement very very interesting networks for anonymous communication and data sharing. Will this kind of movement affect other uses for such communication, too, specifically warez and child pornography?

I'll have a great damn laugh at the world if in a bizarre turn of events the software patent issue leads into bloom of projects like Freenet and such, that are also used to distribute child pornography. Once it gets serious, the only method to stop it for good is to ban all remailers and proxies. Let's see THAT happen!

Orethrius

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1,783
  • Kudos: 982
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #23 on: 7 April 2005, 09:30 »
That's the spirit I knew you had.  ;)

That being said, I'm a tad more serious about them "prying my compiler from my cold, dead fingers."  Come on now, government goons committing felonious acts to subdue a "dangerous emerging technology"?  How many simps do you think we have over here?  Wouldn't be long before a bloody revolution, I'll tell you that.  Oh, and anyone wanting to get in contact with me should already know how by now.  If not, there are handy little buttons at the bottom of the message window.  :D

Proudly posted from a Gentoo Linux system.

Quote from: Calum
even if you're renting you've got more rights than if you're using windows.

System Vitals

solemnwarning

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 747
  • Kudos: 338
    • http://www.solemnwarning.net
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #24 on: 10 April 2005, 00:14 »
Quote from: anphanax
They're not my servers. I'm hosting them for someone else. They're written in Visual Basic 6.0.

As for the "me convincing myself" thing, that's not going to happen. Even with crap like this, i've simply gotten too used to Windows and spent too much time learning to code for it. Time investment is important to people. I have nothing against Linux, and know that it can be used in many places where using Windows wouldn't be a good idea, but for the desktop, it's still a hard sell and will remain so, at least for me. Hell, i'm not even convinced anymore that open source is all that great (I will probably be flamed to death on this). Open source programs crash for no apparent reason, just like closed sourced ones do (xchat, firefox, and openoffice.org are examples of this). I HATE program crashes. I know there's a bigger picture involved here, but still. If FOSS developers are so "talented" and "smart" and "innovative" and "perfect", this shouldn't happen in the first place. I've seen lots of arrogant people bash others for their coding mistakes, then watch them get flooded with bug reports, so... The people with the "FOSS programmers are better an all other programmers" attitude can go to hell. The Open Source model works best when you have the most people looking at projects (more people = more good programmers), so I would think you would WANT to try and convince people to move over to open source.

Note: Telling me to look at the code and try and fix these "no apparent reason" crashes is stupid. Do I look like a linux programmer? Didn't think so... I don't have as much free time as I used to either, nor do I want to spend it learning a platform that I don't use very often because I have one that already works ok. Plus, my linux system doesn't have a keyboard, mouse, or monitor, so... not a big fan of using it at the moment.

Sorry if I seem angry, but this is very stressful. I've never really run into a Windows problem before where I wasn't sure how to fix it.

How do just jump into linux (my way (i really did it like this))

1. install fedora
2. just run it and if i have a problem figure it out

i had learned lots of code and been using winblows for over 5 years, i think if a 12 year old with a mental problem can figure linux out u can <_< so go 4 it :P :thumbup::tux:
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
 Version: 3.1
 GCS/CM d- s+:+ a--- C++ UL++++>$ P+ L+++ !E W++ !N !o !K-- w !O !M !V PS+ PE- !Y !PGP !t !5 !X !R tv b+ DI+ !D G e- h !r y-
 ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Aloone_Jonez

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,090
  • Kudos: 954
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #25 on: 10 April 2005, 04:18 »
The reason why most programs crash is because they're written in C or maybe even some parts assembly. With C it is possible to overdrive code with data and assembly is even worse. This is why I hat C and assembly, the only reason a program should crash is because it ends up in a continuous loop of a stack overflow. Not because the language allows a buffer overrun or pointer error to allow overwriting of code with date and eventual execution of data.

In my opinion a decent programming language should prevent this and to my knowledge Pascal, Basic, Python and Java all do. Hopefully the new 64-bit processors with their new hardware will prevent some of this buffer overun and data execution shit.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2005, 04:20 by Aloone_Jonez »
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

Orethrius

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1,783
  • Kudos: 982
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #26 on: 10 April 2005, 04:51 »
Well really, if you can't figure out how to configure the compiler to treat overrides as errors rather than warnings ("forbid overrides" or whatever it may be), you don't belong anywhere near C.  :p

Proudly posted from a Gentoo Linux system.

Quote from: Calum
even if you're renting you've got more rights than if you're using windows.

System Vitals

Aloone_Jonez

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,090
  • Kudos: 954
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #27 on: 10 April 2005, 05:00 »
To be honest I've never got that far I learned to program in Qbasic as many people did then moved on to assembly, and I tried pascal and it's ok, but I've nevcer fully got C. SO I suppose you're right. But there again what about all these buffer overrun exploits and why do most C programs crash if it isn't because of data bieng executed?
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

muzzy

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 391
  • Kudos: 409
    • http://muzzy.net/
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #28 on: 10 April 2005, 08:10 »
Pascal doesn't protect from buffer overruns, it's just more uncommon since people don't use pointers so commonly in pascal due to strong typing, builtin strings and range checking and stuff.

Also, Orethrius isn't apparently a programmer, or doesn't know what he's talking about. "forbid overrides" my ass, practically no C compilers have designs that prevent buffer overflows because it'd totally fscking kill all performance. Override isn't proper terminology in this context as well, and further suggests ignorance. Go ahead and prove me wrong, name even one compiler and a compiler flag for it that actually prevents buffer overflows.

muzzy

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 391
  • Kudos: 409
    • http://muzzy.net/
Re: Image File Execution Options
« Reply #29 on: 10 April 2005, 08:27 »
Sorry about the above reply, I'm a little irritated, but the point remains. Neither of you seem to truly understand the issue.

Typically, buffer overflows don't overwrite code, they overwrite some important data. Program flow control is managed on the stack, in form of return addresses to points where functions were called. Local variables are also stored on stack, and a buffer that gets overflown on stack gets to overwrite the return addresses on stack. There you go, execution jumps to address of your choice. The traditional attack is to send code in the buffer, and then set execution to jump on stack one way or another. Usually there are bytes somewhere in the application that form a jump to stack, so such a position makes great return address. After that, the execution practically goes to the buffer you just sent, and data gets executed. HOWEVER, it's not necessary to jump there! Buffer overflow can still be extremely dangerous even without data execution. Imagine your application has a code that kills some files, databases, or any cleanup that prompts user if he's really sure. Place the return address right after the prompt has been checked, to where actual work gets done, and the buffer overflow will result is serious damage that NX-flags and such can't prevent. Yay!

The above mentioned stack buffer overflow isn't the only form of buffer overflow, a lot of variations exist. Basically, when attacker gets to overwrite some critical data in unexpected way, there is risk of program flow getting fucked up. Now, memory corruption bugs aren't limited to mere buffer overflows, and C has plenty of them. The very way pointers are defined in C invites compiler writers to implement them in a rather vulnerable fashion. Together with the CPUs being such wimps and raw devices, there's a serious problem. The problem can be solved on language level, but it could also be solved on compiler level, and definitely on CPU level. Designing better languages is the most practical way to approach the problem since you can't really change the CPU.

Microsoft's .NET takes approach at this by defining a virtual execution platform, in a form of bytecode, that things get compiled to. On this level, you can have a VM (kinda virtual cpu) level protection, compiler level protection, and language level protection. All of them, and they're all fscking implemented as well. How's that for security?