Microsoft bans democracy

[Aloone_Jonez]

Am I the only person who disagrees here, get on with your fucking work and stop installing shit and looking at porn. This school has the right to see what you're doing as you're using it's computers, sure if you break the rules that have the right to ban you. Where I work I signed a contract saying I would obide by the rules and if I break them I could be subject to disipliery action.

You wouldn't like it if you let someone use your computer and they installed lots of warez that contained viruses on it now would you?

School and work computers are for work and nothing else.

[MrX]

Am I the only person who disagrees here, get on with your fucking work and stop installing shit and looking at porn. This school has the right to see what you're doing as you're using it's computers, sure if you break the rules that have the right to ban you. Where I work I signed a contract saying I would obide by the rules and if I break them I could be subject to disipliery action.

You wouldn't like it if you let someone use your computer and they installed lots of warez that contained viruses on it now would you?

School and work computers are for work and nothing else.

I don't look at porn at school because my moniter is in plain sight for the teacher to see, and it would be a waste of time when I can play counter-strike. I don't install virus' because that would be stupid. I don't have any P2P apps or any of that sort of thing. I am responcible for the computers I use and I want nothing but the best and that's why I have tweaked mine to be the fastest and most responsive.

And in the agreement they say they can't snoop on you and they're kind of pushing it in my opinion.
Also the other kids can do whatever they want to their computers, I don't care because they can make them shit while mine is the bestly kept one. And if they screw it up that's their own problem, not mine.

Mr X

[Orethrius]

Am I the only person who disagrees here, get on with your fucking work and stop installing shit and looking at porn. This school has the right to see what you're doing as you're using it's computers, sure if you break the rules that have the right to ban you. Where I work I signed a contract saying I would obide by the rules and if I break them I could be subject to disipliery action.

Are you high?  Seriously, where do you get off equating work computers to school computers?  Your job PAYS YOU not to look at porn, not to play games on the systems, and so on.  School computers YOU PAY TO USE.  Don't believe me?  Look at your taxes some time.  So you think that it's within their rights to ban you from the systems you pay to use, good on you.  If you do crap that disrupts other people's usage time (porn, running game servers, etc) you deserve to be.  Now I realise you live in 1984 over there in Omnibus England, but you don't see the problem with the system monitoring YOU and telling YOU that you can't look at this security site over here, or play CounterStrike over here, because it might be counterintuitive to the usage YOU PAY FOR?  What if every ISP did this, would you be pissed off, or just take it like the lamb you're playing?  Additionally, you completely write off the right to privacy!  I don't know how you do things in England, but that's not acceptable behaviour over here.  People have been sued for far, FAR less.

Accordingly, "disciplinary action" need not necessarily equate to "monitoring via inherently insecure tools that provide a valid avenue of attack."

You wouldn't like it if you let someone use your computer and they installed lots of warez that contained viruses on it now would you?

Again, you miss the point.  That's not acceptable behaviour, but do you take anti-virus software as anything but supplemental to your own two eyes and behaviour-analysing ability?  If you let the software take precedence, you DESERVE to have your boxen owned.  Likewise so if you fail to maintain any kind of physical presence around your systems.  Again, many ISPs don't let their sysops run remote admin software as a matter of policy because it presents an avenue of attack for the virii you seem to think Joe Averageuser is going to WANT to install.  That a learning institute condones its usage is a breach of trust of the highest calibur.

School and work computers are for work and nothing else.

Again, you're making an equation where no viable, rational basis exists for one.  Work computers are designed to be used... well, for work.  School computers are designed to be used AT A PLACE OF EDUCATION.  If someone learns about a security vulnerability in Internet Explorer, is that work or play?  If someone subsequently spreads the warning about this glitch on their message board, is that work or play?  Now, if they decide they want to play Tribes, and wind up giving a dozen people the heads-up about this glitch because of that, is that work or play (admittedly stretching the definition)?  It's all subjective, and restricting educational facilities to the definition of "work" held by any one person or group of people is nothing short of facism at best, McCarthyism at worst.  Red Scare anyone?

[Aloone_Jonez]

Are you high?

Nope, I don't do drugs but from the sounds of it you sound like you're high.

Seriously, where do you get off equating work computers to school computers?  Your job PAYS YOU not to look at porn, not to play games on the systems, and so on.  School computers YOU PAY TO USE.  Don't believe me?  Look at your taxes some time.  So you think that it's within their rights to ban you from the systems you pay to use, good on you.

So?
We pay to use the roads and if we don't use them for the purpose they're intended for we get punished.

If you do crap that disrupts other people's usage time (porn, running game servers, etc) you deserve to be.

Right, at least we agree on something.

Now I realise you live in 1984 over there in Omnibus England, but you don't see the problem with the system monitoring YOU and telling YOU that you can't look at this security site over here, or play CounterStrike over here, because it might be counterintuitive to the usage YOU PAY FOR?

Well we pay for education, not to sit around playing games. In my opinion all scools and coleges should make every student sign an agreement stating that they will only use the computers for educational purposes.

What if every ISP did this, would you be pissed off, or just take it like the lamb you're playing?

Hang on a second, a home you pay for your own Internet connection what you do with it is your bussiness. The school pays for their's and they can dictate how it is to be used even if you're paying for school indirectly via taxes, oh I fogot students don't pay much tax anyway and if they don't work (often they're too young to)they don't pay any.

Additionally, you completely write off the right to privacy!  I don't know how you do things in England, but that's not acceptable behaviour over here.  People have been sued for far, FAR less.

Now I can see your point here and it's a tricky one, on one side we need to prevent abuse but on another there's the whole privacy issue. When you're at shcool you don't have any privacy anyway (unless you're taking a shit) so why should it be any different for computer usage?

Accordingly, "disciplinary action" need not necessarily equate to "monitoring via inherently insecure tools that provide a valid avenue of attack."

You got me there, but that's not the point, of course the spying tools should be better, they need to be more secure but nothing is completely secure.

Again, you miss the point.  That's not acceptable behaviour, but do you take anti-virus software as anything but supplemental to your own two eyes and behaviour-analysing ability?  If you let the software take precedence, you DESERVE to have your boxen owned.  Likewise so if you fail to maintain any kind of physical presence around your systems.  Again, many ISPs don't let their sysops run remote admin software as a matter of policy because it presents an avenue of attack for the virii you seem to think Joe Averageuser is going to WANT to install.  That a learning institute condones its usage is a breach of trust of the highest calibur.

More often than not viruses aren't installed deliberatly, they come as trojans that have infected the warez people install. The most stupid thing is, the studants shouldn't be allowed to install stuff anyway, the machines should be locked down.

Again, you're making an equation where no viable, rational basis exists for one.  Work computers are designed to be used... well, for work.  School computers are designed to be used AT A PLACE OF EDUCATION.

No you don't say.

If someone learns about a security vulnerability in Internet Explorer, is that work or play?  If someone subsequently spreads the warning about this glitch on their message board, is that work or play? Now, if they decide they want to play Tribes, and wind up giving a dozen people the heads-up about this glitch because of that, is that work or play (admittedly stretching the definition)?  It's all subjective, and restricting educational facilities to the definition of "work" held by any one person or group of people is nothing short of facism at best, McCarthyism at worst.  Red Scare anyone?

For a start as you and I know they shouldn't be using Internet Explorer anyway, but if they exlpoit the bug and  fucks things up for others they deserve a ban.

Every day schools loose money because of studants abusing the IT equiptment if they put adequate controls in place (and this may include spyware) then they can save money and spend it on other things like teaching.

[Jenda]

Flamewars, episode MMMCIX,

The school computers are also there for kids who do not have a puter/internet access at home. Don't forget those. Here in Canada, they even block email sites.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Flamewars, episode MMMCIX,

Bring it on!

No seriously, I find it sad that we can't have a sensible debate without people slipping the lamest insults into their post like "Are you high?" :rolleyes: in reterospect I shouldn't have bothered responding to this comment.

The school computers are also there for kids who do not have a puter/internet access at home. Don't forget those.

Yes I agree, but the schools computers aren't supposed to be used for recreational purposes.

Here in Canada, they even block email sites.

They do where I work too, infact anything non-work related is blocked (and stupidly some work related stuff too) but we have stand alone Internet machines available just in case.

In fact it is pretty easy to make a reasonably secure system, just give everybody restricted priveliges - no problem. You don't need to install any spyware on the computers either since all the computers on the network connect to the net via the server that can log the IP adresses and it knows with users are using which computers by logging their IP address when they log on, and if people can't install things there is no way they can fuck anything up.

!, once back in the day when I was at school the computers ran Windows 98 and to get round the spyware problem I made a boot disc with a batch file (autoexec.bat) that over-writ the Windows 98 start up picture (c:\windows\logo.sys) with a comical picture of a troll along with a message "Watch out (insert techers name here" has eyes everywhere!" and gave a copy of the disc to all my friends and asked them to boot each computer with the disc so the following day the teacher came in to the computer room and every computer displayed this. I was only caught beacuse a teacher asked me about this and I couldn't keep a straight face   but it was a week from the last day so I didn't care anyway.

The silly thing is I told them how to correct the problem I told them to password the bios setup and make the first boot drive C: but they didn't listen.  :rolleyes: So yes call me a hypocrite if you will but I've been on both sides of this and I've grown up a bit since then so I firmly believe that anything to prevent the computers being fucked about with is a good thing and privacy at school isn't important.

[Lord C]

Bleh, continuing the conversation of school computers,

I was also banned from the blooming network
So I just logged on as the teacher when they weren't looking, hoho.

[MrX]

What is the motivating force between these arguments? What makes you think you know? This isn't like 1990 where we only have one computer for 6 kids. Everyone has there on computer and after we're done the work we play games. Heck, this whole thing is garbage. The reason why they need these rules are because there are too MANY computers for each kid, and when they are done they do something else. Maybe we should go back to 1990 where there where 1 computer for 5 kids and you got the work done and didnt fool around.

If you say that school computer's cannot be used for recreational purposes then why just not take away teacher staff rooms? THis is what im talking about don't be so arrogant. YOU are reading this and YOU play games on computers at work or school some time. Don't lie to me.

Mr X

[Aloone_Jonez]

To be honest I don't play games at all now, may be back in 1990 when I had my sega Master System but I haven't really played any games since Quake 1 (whenever it was realeased)

What you're suggesting is very foolish, you seem to think it's fine to for the schools to allow studants to install software, even pirate software in some cases.

Have you stopped to think of the implications of what you're suggesting?

By giving studants the privileges to install games you're also allowing them to install viruses and while most students don't do it on purpose there is a strong possiblily that the games can contain viruses and this is even more often the case with warez obtained from P2P networks.

The schools should only allow you to use the software that they provide, if you really want to provide you with games then maybe you could pay them to buy them for you and they can ensure they are legit and you only use them at lunch and break time. But I don't see the point in this if you really want do play games then whay don't you bring a laptop in? That's what I used to do.

[Orethrius]

To be honest I don't play games at all now, may be back in 1990 when I had my sega Master System but I haven't really played any games since Quake 1 (whenever it was realeased)

Wait, so you don't even play Patience or anything of that order?  Maybe you get your kicks coding, my way is not everyone's, but it sounds kinda dull to me.

What you're suggesting is very foolish, you seem to think it's fine to for the schools to allow studants to install software, even pirate software in some cases.

Um, actually, who's suggesting that?  Don't read implications where none exist.

Have you stopped to think of the implications of what you're suggesting?

Yeah, by correlation, teachers wouldn't be entrusted to not play games on the systems, and we'd ALL get more work done.  Get real, that's not how the power structure works (though sometimes I wish it did).

By giving studants the privileges to install games you're also allowing them to install viruses and while most students don't do it on purpose there is a strong possiblily that the games can contain viruses and this is even more often the case with warez obtained from P2P networks.

Okay, fair enough.  I'm not endorsing warez, and I doubt anyone else here has said as much.  To that end, any campus that doesn't have P2P ports clamped down should expect to be brutally owned.  They really don't need anything open but 80, and if they're feeling particularly generous, 5190.

The schools should only allow you to use the software that they provide, if you really want to provide you with games then maybe you could pay them to buy them for you and they can ensure they are legit and you only use them at lunch and break time. But I don't see the point in this if you really want do play games then whay don't you bring a laptop in? That's what I used to do.

I'm glad you can afford to do that.  On the other hand, you bring up an issue that I'm sure we've thoroughly worn out by now.  We DO pay them to buy them for us, and the ratio in the States is roughly five computers to every registered student.  It's ludicrous that we're expected to work on those five systems 24/7.  That being said, really, what's to stop someone from just booting off a LiveCD and doing what they want from VMware anyway?  The only solutions I've heard you advocate so far are all software-based, and you have to admit, that's no substitute for having someone actually watching the physical systems.  Now not everybody is going to try to split their attention between thirty boxen at once, fair enough.  That's what the entire Teacher's Assistant / Personal Assistant concept is all about.  If you can't watch the physical presence, hire someone you trust that can, either for cash or class credits.  Again, we're too dependent on software solving security issues, and that's a contradiction in terms really.  If something's not physically secured, no amount of encryption and monitoring is going to solve that problem.

[skyman8081]

All it takes is one student who tried to finish a paper or had to print it, but couldn't because the machine had al kinds of spyware on it.  It can happen, and it DOES happen.

And that 1:6 ratio still holds true at my school, a fairly well off High school thats only a few years old.  A typical HS has about 4,000 students, to have 4,000 computers is hellishly expensive.

Lets say a student has to work on a project that is due, only he cant because all the computers are taken by people who downloaded and installed "Heavy Weapons Deluxe" on the school computer they were using, and were busy playing it.  That student would be rightfully pissed off.

You need to remember that the school computers BELONG to the school, not YOU.

[MrX]

This discussion has gone hootspas and I dont care about fighting an immature point in the first place. good grief.

one vote for bin

Mr X

[skyman8081]

2 votes to not bin.

Just because a thread strayes from the original subject does NOT mean you should bin it!

[solemnwarning]

But I don't see the point in this if you really want do play games then whay don't you bring a laptop in? That's what I used to do.

i would take in my laptop but:

i am not allowed to use any school computers or bring my own laptop in because they belive i am a hacker trying to break their crappy windows network because i use linux and know wtf im talking about <_<

i really hate school!!!

[MarathoN]

It's ludicrous that we're expected to work on those five systems 24/7. That being said, really, what's to stop someone from just booting off a LiveCD and doing what they want from VMware anyway? The only solutions I've heard you advocate so far are all software-based, and you have to admit, that's no substitute for having someone actually watching the physical systems. Now not everybody is going to try to split their attention between thirty boxen at once, fair enough. That's what the entire Teacher's Assistant / Personal Assistant concept is all about. If you can't watch the physical presence, hire someone you trust that can, either for cash or class credits. Again, we're too dependent on software solving security issues, and that's a contradiction in terms really. If something's not physically secured, no amount of encryption and monitoring is going to solve that problem.

I don't understand why people are talking about students screwing up a computer, Internet Explorer does that to the computer by default, so you can't totally blame the students for computers being destroyed.

That's why when I was in school I tried to install Firefox, but it wouldn't allow me to (Software Policy, it wouldn't allow you to install pretty much anything) :thumbdwn:

I also was thinking of trying to bring in Knoppix, but this idea never came to be a reality :nothappy:

What about the students out there (like me) who actually try and make the system more secure, but are locked out by a Software Policy that doesn't allow you to install any secure software... :fu:

What I REALLY don't understand is why I was banned from the school computer network, despite my efforts to try and make the system more secure, I was actually trying to help the school, but they locked me out.... (this really isn't fair) :thumbdwn: