Microsoft bans democracy

[Jenda]

This isn't like 1990 where we only have one computer for 6 kids. Everyone has there on computer and after we're done the work we play games. (...) there are too MANY computers for each kid, and when they are done they do something else.

the ratio in the States is roughly five computers to every registered student.

Guys,  don't know where you are living, but my school here in Canada the school has some 400 students in secondaire, and about say 50-100 computers all together, and my Czech (private) school of 160 students only has 9, although the students usually prefer to go home and use their own. Were you referring to home computers or school computers (when saying 5 comps per kid, everyone has their own) - and what sort of a school is that?

[Aloone_Jonez]

Wait, so you don't even play Patience or anything of that order?

No I don't play any games at all.

 Maybe you get your kicks coding,

I used to, but I got bored of it.

Yeah, by correlation, teachers wouldn't be entrusted to not play games on the systems, and we'd ALL get more work done.  Get real, that's not how the power structure works (though sometimes I wish it did).

Well you always get the odd one or two bent teachers.

Okay, fair enough.  I'm not endorsing warez, and I doubt anyone else here has said as much.  To that end, any campus that doesn't have P2P ports clamped down should expect to be brutally owned.  They really don't need anything open but 80, and if they're feeling particularly generous, 5190.

I agree.

I'm glad you can afford to do that.  On the other hand, you bring up an issue that I'm sure we've thoroughly worn out by now.  We DO pay them to buy them for us,

No you pay them for education not games!

and the ratio in the States is roughly five computers to every registered student.

bullshit.

It's ludicrous that we're expected to work on those five systems 24/7.

I doubt they even run them 24/7.

That being said, really, what's to stop someone from just booting off a LiveCD and doing what they want from VMware anyway?[/quot]
Easy to stop I've mentioned this before, just change the boot sequance to the hard disc first and password protect the bios.

The only solutions I've heard you advocate so far are all software-based, and you have to admit, that's no substitute for having someone actually watching the physical systems.

We weren't even allowed to use the computers without supervision.

 Now not everybody is going to try to split their attention between thirty boxen at once, fair enough.  That's what the entire Teacher's Assistant / Personal Assistant concept is all about.  If you can't watch the physical presence, hire someone you trust that can, either for cash or class credits.  Again, we're too dependent on software solving security issues, and that's a contradiction in terms really.  If something's not physically secured, no amount of encryption and monitoring is going to solve that problem.

Fair point.

All it takes is one student who tried to finish a paper or had to print it, but couldn't because the machine had al kinds of spyware on it.  It can happen, and it DOES happen.

And that 1:6 ratio still holds true at my school, a fairly well off High school thats only a few years old.  A typical HS has about 4,000 students, to have 4,000 computers is hellishly expensive.

Lets say a student has to work on a project that is due, only he cant because all the computers are taken by people who downloaded and installed "Heavy Weapons Deluxe" on the school computer they were using, and were busy playing it.  That student would be rightfully pissed off.

You need to remember that the school computers BELONG to the school, not YOU.

I agree with you 100%.

I don't understand why people are talking about students screwing up a computer, Internet Explorer does that to the computer by default, so you can't totally blame the students for computers being destroyed.

I agree, Internet Explore is the worst part of Windows.

That's why when I was in school I tried to install Firefox, but it wouldn't allow me to (Software Policy, it wouldn't allow you to install pretty much anything) :thumbdwn:

While I can see your frustration I'm affraid this is the way it should be, sorry I meant not allowing people to install software, I think they should use Firefox and block Internet Explorer.

I also was thinking of trying to bring in Knoppix, but this idea never came to be a reality :nothappy:

What about the students out there (like me) who actually try and make the system more secure, but are locked out by a Software Policy that doesn't allow you to install any secure software... :fu:

I understand again, but it really isn't your job and it's just tough shit if the IT admins are crap.

What I REALLY don't understand is why I was banned from the school computer network, despite my efforts to try and make the system more secure, I was actually trying to help the school, but they locked me out.... (this really isn't fair) :thumbdwn:

Because you broke the rules - plain and simple.

Try going anout this a different way, speek to the administrators about the security issues with their network, write them a report, be polite and don't slag them off, if you make a good impression they might even offer you a job when you leave school.

[Kintaro]

:crys:

What happened to my flamewar, here I was flameing away on a totally different subject when BAM, a flooding explosion of flames rushes in through the side of the thread with a dozen people bitching about .

I think that they should Free Saddam Hussain, George Bush should be made King, and the Prince Harry should be given control over the entire United Kingdom. And Open Source Should Be Banned!

[Kintaro]

Remeber Gpl Is Communism

BAN COMMUNISM TODAY!!!111oneoneone.

[toadlife]

Again, you're making an equation where no viable, rational basis exists for one. Work computers are designed to be used... well, for work. School computers are designed to be used AT A PLACE OF EDUCATION. If someone learns about a security vulnerability in Internet Explorer, is that work or play? If someone subsequently spreads the warning about this glitch on their message board, is that work or play? Now, if they decide they want to play Tribes, and wind up giving a dozen people the heads-up about this glitch because of that, is that work or play (admittedly stretching the definition)?

I'm a network/systems admin at a school, and students are NOT allowed carte blanche access to the computers. They are allowed to use them for educational purposes, and "educational purposes" is defined by the school's administation. The students have no say in the matter.

I am in charge of around eight computers labs. The computers run Win2k/WinXP and students log on as "guest" accounts. They basicially have the right to run the existing programs on the computer, print (10c a page at some locations) and save their stuff on removable media. When they log off or reboot their profiles are dumped and the next time they log in the same 'default profile' is loaded for them.

If you give students more access than that they will (intentionally or not) screw the computers up, which leads to extra work. That's something our IT staff cannot afford since we have four people (3.5 if you properly factor in the incompitent one) for 1100 workstations and 25 servers.

The students are in fact more restricted than the staff members. The staff members are still not allowed admin access to their machines, but they do not log on as guests.

It's all subjective, and restricting educational facilities to the definition of "work" held by any one person or group of people is nothing short of facism at best, McCarthyism at worst. Red Scare anyone?

I guess we're a fascist country because that's how it works in just about every school in the U.S. The school owns the computers and the school decides what the computers are to be used for. The students don't own the computers any more than they own the buildings they are housed in. I've converesed with quite a few IT people from other schools in California and other states and not once have I heard of the school allowing the students to...

a) play games ojn school computers
b) have any kind of admin access to school computers
c) install software on school computers

There are exceptions to the rule (Speciafic computer related classes), but these are only exceptions.

Sure they might use school computers for chatting or message board posting, but we have th right to kick them off of the computer if another student needs to do something more school related, like type a paper.

[toadlife]

woah. I replied to Oritheius without reading the rest of the thread.

*bad toadlife!*

Okay, I've seen a lot of stuff in here that are interesting but I'm too lazy to properly quote everyone. You guys will jsut have to pick your quotes out yourselves.

         

"This isn't like 1990 where we only have one computer for 6 kids."

"We DO pay them to buy them for us, and the ratio in the States is roughly five computers to every registered student."

??? Wow. Those ratios are foriegn to anything I've ever seen.

In 1992 when I was a freshman in highschool, there was approximately 1 computer for every 50 students. In 1996 when I was a senior, the ratio had not changed.

Today at the school I work for, there is about 1 computer for every 11 students.

"That being said, really, what's to stop someone from just booting off a LiveCD and doing what they want from VMware anyway?"

In the labs I run, the computers are set to boot from the harddrive and network only. To change, it you need to BIOS password. To boot from the network, you also need a password, so booting from the hard drive is pretty much the only option.

"The only solutions I've heard you advocate so far are all software-based, and you have to admit, that's no substitute for having someone actually watching the physical systems."

California state law (education code) requires a fully credentialled teacher to be present in computers labs while students are using them. Sometimes this rule is bent, but there is *always* someone there watching. Aside from that, the software/hareware (permission/BIOS) restrictions I have in place are fairly effective to begin with. The people there to supervise prevent student from opening up the cases and reseting the bios password via a jumper.

"All it takes is one student who tried to finish a paper or had to print it, but couldn't because the machine had al kinds of spyware on it. It can happen, and it DOES happen."

If the IT people are incompetent. In my labs, the students can't mess the computers up because they are locked down properly via Windows (yes Windows) permissions. I have labs computers running Win2k that I havn't touched in three years. They look/act/work exactly the same as they did the day I cloned them due to the fact that I set them up properly in the first place.

"I don't understand why people are talking about students screwing up a computer, Internet Explorer does that to the computer by default, so you can't totally blame the students for computers being destroyed."

Correct, you can't blame the students. You can blame the IT staff that set the computers up. When logged on as a restricted account in Windows, spyware installs via IE do not work.

"i am not allowed to use any school computers or bring my own laptop in because they belive i am a hacker trying to break their crappy windows network because i use linux and know wtf im talking about <_<"

I used to have a really cool student worker who was from Pakistan. He was really bright and helped us out a lot. He would tell about students who said they were going to hack the school's web server, which by the way runs Windown/IIS. Never happened.





Oh, and yes Kintaro, The spirit of GPL is similar to the spirit of communism.

A challege for you Kintaro, name a coutry which has implimetned communism without having to retort to fasism/dictatorship to maintain it.

[skyman8081]

I was naming a hypothetical situation.  I'm on my schools IT staff, the student accounds are locked down to a level below that of the windows guest account.  Can't install, see the C: drive, right-click, see anything in the programs section of the start menu.  The students can only access the program groups that ZenWorks puts in.

Here is a question for you.  Do you NEED to allow students to access PopCap games during a tutorial period that is DESIGNATED for students to be doing school work?  Didn't think so.

EDIT: I should add that we also lock the BIOS and boot in the order of:
PXE
Hard Drive
CD-ROM
Floppy

anything goes wrong, and we mark the machine to be re-imaged in ConsoleOne, and send somebody to re-boot it, and makesure that Zen re-images it.

[toadlife]

Here is a question for you. Do you NEED to allow students to access PopCap games during a tutorial period that is DESIGNATED for students to be doing school work? Didn't think so.

Is that directed at me? :confused:

EDIT: I should add that we also lock the BIOS and boot in the order of:
PXE
Hard Drive
CD-ROM
Floppy

anything goes wrong, and we mark the machine to be re-imaged in ConsoleOne, and send somebody to re-boot it, and makesure that Zen re-images it.

Sounds kinda like the setup we have, sans the fancy software. We lack the budget to buy much management software, so we have to make *full* use of built in Windows security structure. We do have Norton Ghost 7.5 which has numerous bugs and is not supported by Symantec any more.

 [OFFTOPIC]
Sopeaking of Symantec..they make Microsoft look like fucking saints when it comes to supporting older versions. We bought Ghost 7.5 and paid a helfty chunk of change for it, and one year later they comp[letely dropped support for it even though it still contained some really bad bugs. When you search for the bugs in their knowledge base it says "This issue is resolved in version 8.0 of Ghost" Please contact your resller to purchase an updated version.

There should a fucksymantec.com or symansuck.com site.
[/OFFTOPIC]

[skyman8081]

That question was not directed at you.  We seem to be on the same page here.

And ZenWorks is way the fuck better than Ghost, hence why my school switched to ZenWorks Imaging from Ghost.

[toadlife]

And ZenWorks is way the fuck better than Ghost, hence why my school switched to ZenWorks Imaging from Ghost.

Yeah, when we finally get some money to buy new management software we will NOT be buying anything from Symantec. I'll be sure and keep zenworks in mind as something we evaluate.

The bug in Ghost 7.5 that we are stuck with is having the ghost console joining machines to our domain after being cloned. Out of a lab of 25 computers, an average five will mysteriously fail to join the domain after being cloned. There is no ryme or reason to it. This means we have to be there when the computers are cloned, and manually join the machines that failed. It's a *big* time waster.

[skyman8081]

The only Caveat with Zen, is that the server end runs on Novell NetWare.  So you'd be looking at a big-ass overhaul of your LAN, one that gives you more control.

We used to use Ghost at my school, I remember it, and then I wake up screaming.

[toadlife]

The only Caveat with Zen, is that the server end runs on Novell NetWare. So you'd be looking at a big-ass overhaul of your LAN, one that gives you more control.

We used to use Ghost at my school, I remember it, and then I wake up screaming.

haha. Scratch that. No Novell going on here.

[toadlife]

I'm not too sure about Novell giving you more control, but...

I've had a really good Novell Directory vs. Microsoft AD argument with a Novell person a couple of years back. We went back and forth for quite awhile and eventually came to the conclusion that both of us were "right".

We were comparing Microsoft / Novell whitepapers and marketing material and came to the conclusion that both systems had extremely similar capabilities, in respect to their claims about the other, both Novell and Microsoft were full of shit.

[Refalm]

From experience, AD is an unlogical system that has up to three different directory and file rights, and a very confusing connectivity scheme.

NetWare on the other hand, was a fresh breath of air. You've got NetWare rights, the NTFS rights are simply ignored, install the Novell Client on a client computer and you're done, and it's got good LDAP support.

[Kintaro]

Oh, and yes Kintaro, The spirit of GPL is similar to the spirit of communism.

A challege for you Kintaro, name a coutry which has implimetned communism without having to retort to fasism/dictatorship to maintain it.

DUh wazzah happne herre the right wingg facist has mmee sttuck in a hhole again oh NOEZ

I am very aware that the problem with Communism (or any new revolutionary radical system) is that the only people interested in working with it are only interested in the power they gain from it.

GPL is still freaky pinko communism and should be banned, nonetheless, its evil, isn't it.

If you were being less specific, I would say a good implementation of Socialism is http://www.wikipedia.org and I think governments could learn from the way that is run.

-----

As for the schools debate, not everyone is a genius with computers. Their are morons out there who will get spyware and bullshit on computers. However instead of the educational facilities actually educating they will instead put restrictions on the systems to stop bullshit getting into the machines, as not only does bullshit smell and eat network bandwidth, but it also causes problems for students who are stupid and don't know what to do.

Live with it, learn to work around it if you want. I had a CGI Proxy running on my webserver too, with SSL support, so I could log into my gmail from school. Stop bitching and start learning ways around things, thats how schools create a good hacker.