Windows Vista will layer OpenGL over D3D

[RaZoR1394]

Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vis

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[/color][/size][/font]Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience.

In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass:

• OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%
  
• OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4  
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• No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations.
  

It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.

What can you do?

[list=1]

• Write to your preferred ISV, hardware developer or OEM and tell them to bring this up with Microsoft (e.g. 3Dlabs, ATI, Intel, Matrox, NVIDIA, HP, Dell)
  
• Bring this issue up on other developer and tech-related web sites. If you have a personal blog or podcast, talk about the issue there. Windows Vista might end up being a great product, but not if OpenGL is crippled
  
• Post your comments to this message board (please no Microsoft bashing - Just make it clear that Windows needs to stay a great platform for the OpenGL API and offer any suggestions)
  

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I can't believe this. Someone tell me this is a bad dream. I could give a f*ck less about Vista but this may seriously going to make several developers go 100% d3d. And I who thought most problems were gone when stronger software patents got voted down.

[toadlife]

Much ado about nothing here.

Microsoft has never supported OpenGL in DirectX. As with Win2k and WinXP, with Vista, proper OpenGL support will be provided by third parties like Nvidia and Ati.

When you run an OpenGL game under Vista, the game will use your graphics card's OpenGL driver, NOT DirectX. "Aero mode" might not work while you are playing your openGL game, but who the heck cares about transparent windows when your running a fullscreen 3d game?

This halfhearted OpenGL support will actually be more than Microsft has ever provided in the past.

[skyman8081]

Much ado about nothing here.

Microsoft has never supported OpenGL in DirectX. As with Win2k and WinXP, with Vista, proper OpenGL support will be provided by third parties like Nvidia and Ati.

When you run an OpenGL game under Vista, the game will use your graphics card's OpenGL driver, NOT DirectX. "Aero mode" might not work while you are playing your openGL game, but who the heck cares about transparent windows when your running a fullscreen 3d game?

This halfhearted OpenGL support will actually be more than Microsft has ever provided in the past.

 You are forgetting one thing.

That doesn't make Microsoft look bad, thus is inadmissable here.

[toadlife]

Ahh crap. I forgot the rules of evidence here.

Statement withdrawn.

[WMD]

You are forgetting one thing.

That doesn't make Microsoft look bad, thus is inadmissable here.

Oh, you know what skyman?  Just shut up.  Really.  You've only said this stuff about a million times.  We get the picture.

[toadlife]

back on topic.

If Microsoft *did* make it impossible to impliment OpenGL properly on Vista, then they would be looking at another AT lawsuit.

openGL is used on linux/BSD/OSx/PS2/Gamecube - pretty much everything except for X-Box and Windows. Locking out OpenGL from Vista would almost force game writers to use DirectX for Windows games, which would encourage porting to the X-Box and discourage porting to anything else.

[worker201]

If you continue to use Windows, you continue to be at their mercy.  You won't see me complaining, because OpenGL works just fine on all my computers.  Anybody brave enough to use DirectX deserves to be shafted like this.

[Jenda]

If you continue to use Windows, you continue to be at their mercy.  You won't see me complaining, because OpenGL works just fine on all my computers.  Anybody brave enough to use DirectX deserves to be shafted like this.

 Yup... The only thing I'm afraid of is the potential influence on the outside world. I hope Microsoft loses the power to shift standards before it makes darkness the standard (remember "how many MS employees does it take to screw in a lightbulb?").

[Lee]

... (remember "how many MS employees does it take to screw in a lightbulb?").

Remind me please

[Aloone_Jonez]

back on topic.

If Microsoft *did* make it impossible to impliment OpenGL properly on Vista, then they would be looking at another AT lawsuit.

openGL is used on linux/BSD/OSx/PS2/Gamecube - pretty much everything except for X-Box and Windows. Locking out OpenGL from Vista would almost force game writers to use DirectX for Windows games, which would encourage porting to the X-Box and discourage porting to anything else.

Didn't they plan to remove Java from Windows and force their ActiveX shit down everyone's throats but they were threatened with legal action.

[toadlife]

If you continue to use Windows, you continue to be at their mercy. You won't see me complaining, because OpenGL works just fine on all my computers. Anybody brave enough to use DirectX deserves to be shafted like this.

I use Windows, and don't feel like I am at their mercy. You also won't see me complaining because unlike some others I realize that this whole story is nothing but FUD.

[Orethrius]

I use Windows, and don't feel like I am at their mercy. You also won't see me complaining because unlike some others I realize that this whole story is nothing but FUD.

Why are you defending D3D when it's not done anything that OpenGL has done a hundred times prior?

[solo]

FUD? No. Exaggerated? Yes.

The layering of OpenGL ontop of D3D will be implemented in Microsoft's OpenGL library, which is not used when you install NVIDIA or API drivers. In fact, this is true on Linux too, Linux comes with MesaGL, an unaccelerated GL which is used until NVIDIA's or ATI's installers replace the libgl.so[.1] links with links to their own GL libs.

Because of this, we may even see Nvidia or ATI find a better solution instead of layering D3D to achieve the same effects. They've been known to actively react to stuff like this.

In the meantime though, I am all secure--I'll probably never run Windows Vista on my boxen.

[toadlife]

Why are you defending D3D when it's not done anything that OpenGL has done a hundred times prior?

I'm not defending Direct3D, just calling BS when I see it. OpenGL is better than Direct3D. Because of that developers will continue to use it, and if Microsoft tries to kill it using their OS monopoly, they will be sued by the government (or another company) and they will lose.

How would you like it if I said..."By using linux you are at Linus Torvaldus' mercy? Sounds kidn silly doesn't it? I am not at anyones mercy...there are *plenty* of options in the computing world, and my life would go on just fine if Microsoft suddenly disappeared.

[skyman8081]

This only REALLY only effects people running on an Intel i810 graphics chip.

And nothing this side of 1999 runs on those anyway...