Author Topic: gnu=borg - discuss  (Read 12056 times)

skyman8081

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #90 on: 28 August 2005, 04:56 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
Well, it works for free software!
I'd like to see more than anecdotal evidence for that one.
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piratePenguin

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #91 on: 28 August 2005, 05:03 »
Quote from: skyman8081
I'd like to see more than anecdotal evidence for that one.
GNU. X11/Xorg. Linux. Apache. Firefox. OpenOffice.org...
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
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Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

skyman8081

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #92 on: 28 August 2005, 05:05 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
GNU. X11/Xorg. Linux. Apache. Firefox. OpenOffice.org...
Do you even know what anecdotal evidence is?

Allow me to elighten you.
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piratePenguin

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #93 on: 28 August 2005, 05:12 »
Quote from: skyman8081
Do you even know what anecdotal evidence is?
I did look it up but... Didn't stop me.
Quote from: skyman8081
Allow me to elighten you.
Ah well, I can't help ya there.
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
 - Noah And The Whale: Give a little love



a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

skyman8081

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #94 on: 28 August 2005, 05:34 »
piratePenguin, I'm going to give you three seconds. exactly three fucking seconds to wipe the stupid smirk off your face, before I will gouge out your eyes and skull-fuck you!

2 motherfuckers have sigged me so far.  Fuck yeah!


Kintaro

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #95 on: 28 August 2005, 05:58 »
Yeah, Capatalism works fucking wonderfully. Just look what happens when to stock market crashes.

(morons)

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #96 on: 28 August 2005, 13:34 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
Yes I have. But neither myself or GNU have ever demanded that software be made free like what yourself (in that quote) and skyman (in his sig) have suggested.

Alright you haven't directly said it but you've implied it, by saying something's evil it means you hate it and therefore should be eliminated and if you eliminate all proprietary software only free software will be left.

Quote from: ksym
So what have we learned? Nothing. Abso-fuking-lutely nothing =)

I disagree, we've learned a lot, we've learned that:

Proprietary software isn't evil it's just people being selfish looking after number one which is human nature after all.

Forcing the free model on everyone would be a totalitarian policy and will create more problems than it would solve.

Free software isn't always technically superior, it's the developers that determine the quality which has little to do with the license.

The free model isn't always good business sense and this is why lots of companies refuse to use it.

Free software is great.

It's very good to share.

Doing something for the community is excellent, communism can work.

But people have just as much right to choose to share as they do to to choose not to.
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Orethrius

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #97 on: 28 August 2005, 14:25 »
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
Alright you haven't directly said it but you've implied it, by saying something's evil it means you hate it and therefore should be eliminated and if you eliminate all proprietary software only free software will be left.

What's wrong with that? I mean, really, where is the problem? A few dozen suits lose their majority stranglehold of the market to the many? Colour me unimpressed.

Quote
Proprietary software isn't evil it's just people being selfish looking after number one which is human nature after all.

...and man is sinful by nature, that doesn't make such behaviour RIGHT or even BENEFICIAL to the whole of humanity. In fact, it can be quite detrimental, particularly considering all the products we'll never hear about and can't BEGIN to quantify because they were quashed by proprietary code that managed to creep into the product one way or another. When someone gets to own common knowledge, that in and of itself is totalitarianism, which brings us to the next point.

Quote
Forcing the free model on everyone would be a totalitarian policy and will create more problems than it would solve.

That's debatable; that kind of reactionary thinking is not an uncommon knee-jerk opinion formed when someone else gives them the totalitarian option of paying for something that should be common knowledge (unless you happen to think that C and all programming languages should be governed by their financiers instead of their progenitors, in which case I have no objections to you being dragged out into a field and shot). Having said that, I fail to see how a standarised model would hurt FOSS. Let's bear in mind that proprietary (as in truly uninterpretable) software is a fairly new concept - in fact, most of the growth of the PC platform was made between the late 70's and early 90's - where most of the software was open either to recompilation or at least inspection. Too bad the companies that refuse to share their source are oftentimes the ones that do their best to silence reports of security breaches.

Quote
Free software isn't always technically superior, it's the developers that determine the quality which has little to do with the license.

Point one: It'd be nice if idiots would stick to making proprietary software, but this won't happen.
Point two: In light of point one, at least said idiots can have their code corrected, assuming it's worth saving.
Point three: Very often crappy open-source code will die its natural death because of excessively poor coding. The last time I checked, Microsoft still had Vis.

Quote
The free model isn't always good business sense and this is why lots of companies refuse to use it.

It's quite good for business, as only the valid concepts receive any attention whatsoever. A program that brings up a terminal and prints "hello world" fifteen-thousand times to a .log file, on the other hand, tends to get left by the wayside. As for Windows, who knows how many other functions Solitaire calls before loading? All kidding aside, IBM, Sun, and a number of other "old-timers" have seen the light and are producing software the same way they produced it twenty years ago. Why doesn't anybody else? Greed is no excuse.

Quote
Free software is great.

It's very good to share.

Doing something for the community is excellent, communism can work.

The problem is that we have Rich Stallman on one side espousing the benefits of FOSS, while Vladimir Gates sits on the other side pointing out the cons. I find it convenient - if not ironic - that he rips on the one thing that would topple his empire.

Quote
But people have just as much right to choose to share as they do to to choose not to.

Precisely, but greed ultimately leads to a shortage of resources - as has been proven many times prior - and winds up hurting the people it was meant to serve. The question becomes: do I want to serve the community, or serve myself? When you choose the latter, you're hurting everyone, including yourself, particularly in the long run.

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Jenda

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #98 on: 28 August 2005, 15:32 »
It is irresistable to come back...
I would like to point out the difference I feel between FOSS and communism. The latter claims common ownership of everything. As to the former, I'm not sure about the other FOSS advocates, but I think no knowledge can ever be owned (but credited to someone), which has long been accepted in science. There is no significant difference, IMO, between discoveries and SW.
As I have mentioned before, I don't yet have a fully formed opinion on media and the like.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #99 on: 28 August 2005, 16:32 »
Quote from: Orethrius
What's wrong with that? I mean, really, where is the problem? A few dozen suits lose their majority stranglehold of the market to the many? Colour me unimpressed.

This would be a total disaster the market would completely collapse there would be milions of job losses.

Not to mention how the hell could this be inforced?

Quote from: Orethrius
...and man is sinful by nature, that doesn't make such behaviour RIGHT or even BENEFICIAL to the whole of humanity. In fact, it can be quite detrimental, particularly considering all the products we'll never hear about and can't BEGIN to quantify because they were quashed by proprietary code that managed to creep into the product one way or another. When someone gets to own common knowledge, that in and of itself is totalitarianism, which brings us to the next point.


Oh, I'm evil because I (like most people) earn money and I choose not to share most of it. The company I work for is evil because we design things and we don't share our knowledge with the community, because of this people choose our products over our competitor's who might go under because we haven't shared our ideas with them, so it's our fault they couldn't compete with so we're obviously so evil.

Quote from: Orethrius
That's debatable; that kind of reactionary thinking is not an uncommon knee-jerk opinion formed when someone else gives them the totalitarian option of paying for something that should be common knowledge (unless you happen to think that C and all programming languages should be governed by their financiers instead of their progenitors, in which case I have no objections to you being dragged out into a field and shot). Having said that, I fail to see how a standarised model would hurt FOSS. Let's bear in mind that proprietary (as in truly uninterpretable) software is a fairly new concept - in fact, most of the growth of the PC platform was made between the late 70's and early 90's - where most of the software was open either to recompilation or at least inspection. Too bad the companies that refuse to share their source are oftentimes the ones that do their best to silence reports of security breaches.


I've heard this all before, all I can say is sharing code only works because it's voluntary, totalitarianism has never worked before in history. Code = wealth, forcing people to share the latter has always lead to disaster so why should compulsory sharing of the former be any different?

Quote from: Orethrius
Point one: It'd be nice if idiots would stick to making proprietary software, but this won't happen.


What evidence do you have to support this? Why won't things stay proprietary? I've heard this bullshit many times before but nothing significant has happened to support this, the market isn't moving that quickly towards free software, if anything the reverse is the case.

Quote from: Orethrius
Point two: In light of point one, at least said idiots can have their code corrected, assuming it's worth saving.


If this is true then why hasn't anyone corrected this critical bug in Firefox? Unless you're suggesting Firefox isn't worth saving of course.


Quote from: Orethrius
Point three: Very often crappy open-source code will die its natural death because of excessively poor coding. The last time I checked, Microsoft still had Vis.


This should (in theory) apply to the proprietary world too (if it did we wouldn't have had to put up with MS-DOS for so long). Why do you think it applies to free software and not proprietary?

Quote from: Orethrius
It's quite good for business, as only the valid concepts receive any attention whatsoever. A program that brings up a terminal and prints "hello world" fifteen-thousand times to a .log file, on the other hand, tends to get left by the wayside. As for Windows, who knows how many other functions Solitaire calls before loading? All kidding aside, IBM, Sun, and a number of other "old-timers" have seen the light and are producing software the same way they produced it twenty years ago. Why doesn't anybody else? Greed is no excuse.


I chose my wording more carefully this time, I didn't say "The open source model is bad for business" I said "it isn't always good business sense". What works for SUN and IBM might not work for Adobe, Apple or Microsoft.

Quote from: Orethrius
The problem is that we have Rich Stallman on one side espousing the benefits of FOSS, while Vladimir Gates sits on the other side pointing out the cons. I find it convenient - if not ironic - that he rips on the one thing that would topple his empire.


Free software is great but if you think it'll destroy proprietary software they you're very naive indeed. I support the sharing of code but it isn't vital for a healthy market, many companies all having a reasonable share is.

Quote from: Orethrius
Precisely, but greed ultimately leads to a shortage of resources - as has been proven many times prior - and winds up hurting the people it was meant to serve. The question becomes: do I want to serve the community, or serve myself? When you choose the latter, you're hurting everyone, including yourself, particularly in the long run.


That's capitalism for you, communism has been tried and tested throughout the course of history and has always done more harm than good, so until something better comes along capitalism as bad as it is, is the best we're going to get.
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

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Kintaro

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #100 on: 28 August 2005, 18:38 »
Just wait about five years when the price of oil jumps to triple digits because the Saudi reserves run dry, just wait, and then see how well Capitalism serves. Remember, it was capatalism that lead to Nazi Germany, that was all thanks to Capitalism. It was capaitalism's faults that lead to so many faulty Communist regimes. However most of those regimes were still Capitalist and just masquerade behind the Communist name to sound nice while they are generally totalitarian, etc.

Refalm

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #101 on: 28 August 2005, 18:49 »
Quote from: kintaro
Just wait about five years when the price of oil jumps to triple digits because the Saudi reserves run dry, just wait, and then see how well Capitalism serves. Remember, it was capatalism that lead to Nazi Germany, that was all thanks to Capitalism. It was capaitalism's faults that lead to so many faulty Communist regimes. However most of those regimes were still Capitalist and just masquerade behind the Communist name to sound nice while they are generally totalitarian, etc.

If the western world as it is today wishes to maintain, it should've made their cars run on hydrogen fuel and sunflower oil at least ten years ago.

The energy too. Fossil fuels are going to run out someday, and most of the energy supply is still coal based. Yes, nuclear power is a fossil fuel too.

Instead of calling on citizens to consume less and regulate energy use, it has become more of a trend to increase buying force amongst citizens to bost economic health.
But hey, what do the 50+ government leaders care if their children have to live in poverty?

Jenda

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #102 on: 28 August 2005, 19:11 »
Quote
Remember, it was capatalism that lead to Nazi Germany, that was all thanks to Capitalism. It was capaitalism's faults that lead to so many faulty Communist regimes.

Where the FUCK do you get this shit from??? Please enlighten me if I am mistaken, but the Nazis were officially The Nationalist Socialist Party - i.e definite left, nothing about capitalism whatsoever!
No comment to the second POC.

Jenda

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #103 on: 28 August 2005, 19:13 »
Quote
The energy too. Fossil fuels are going to run out someday, and most of the energy supply is still coal based. Yes, nuclear power is a fossil fuel too.

No it is not. Fossil fuels are transformed organic material.

Refalm

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Re: gnu=borg - discuss
« Reply #104 on: 28 August 2005, 19:37 »
Quote from: Jenda
No it is not. Fossil fuels are transformed organic material.

Technically it isn't no. I meant that uranium has to be mined too, and that it can and will run out.