Author Topic: Kill Bill's Browser  (Read 8949 times)

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #45 on: 20 November 2005, 19:56 »
I agree.

I do take back some of the things I said before, I don't have a problem with Firefox, it has its advantage over Opera (like standards compliance for example). I deem Opera as superiour because it has more features, is lighter and is less of a strain on the system resources, other people disagree and believe standards compliance are more important - each to their own I say.
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piratePenguin

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #46 on: 20 November 2005, 20:27 »
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
Windows NT has a microkernel design which is technically superiour to Linux's monolithic system, therefore Windows is technically superiour to Linux even though it uses more resources and has less features
And then I'd pop in and say "NT is a single-server microkernel, and Linux has basically all the (technical and non-technical) benefits of that already. Single-server microkernels are basically equal to well-designed monolithic kernels (like Linux). If NT was a multi-server microkenel like the Hurd or Minix, and it worked well, it could have functionality that Linux couldn't dream off without a complete redesign and a few sloppy hacks. NT would be technically superior to Linux, there would be no question.".
Quote from:
I deem Opera as superiour because it has more features, is lighter and is less of a strain on the system resources
I deem Firefox as technically superior for it's XUL design, which brings many advantages, both technical and non-technical. I never suggested it was functionally or efficiently superior.
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Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

H_TeXMeX_H

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #47 on: 20 November 2005, 20:34 »
If Linux came from Minix, why isn't it a multi-server microkenel ?

cymon

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #48 on: 20 November 2005, 20:46 »
OSX has a Mach microkernal, too. The point is that sure, Linux uses a monolithic kernel, and so does BSD. Those are both perfectly fine operating systems however, and are both better than NT, in my opinion. In the end, the kernel is just one part of something, and even if you have an awesome kernel, if your filesystem, user interface, etc. is shit, then your operating system is shit.

H_TeXMeX_H

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #49 on: 20 November 2005, 20:49 »
I found the answer to my own question on Wiki

In the early 1990s, monolithic kernels were considered obsolete. The design of Linux as a monolithic kernel rather than a microkernel was the topic of a famous flame war (or what then passed for flaming) between Linus Torvalds and Andrew Tanenbaum.

There is merit in both sides of the arguments presented in the Tanenbaum/Torvalds debate.

Monolithic kernels tend to be easier to design correctly, and therefore may grow more quickly than a microkernel-based system. There are success stories in both camps. Microkernels are often used in embedded robotic or medical computers because most of the OS components reside in their own private, protected memory space. This is impossible with monolithic kernels, even with modern module-loading ones. However, the monolithic model tends to be more efficient through the use of shared kernel memory, rather than the slower Inter-process communication characteristic of microkernel designs.

Although Mach is the best-known general-purpose microkernel, several other microkernels have been developed with more specific aims. L3 was created to demonstrate that microkernels are not necessarily slow. L4 is a successor to L3 and a popular implementation called Fiasco is able to run Linux next to other L4 processes in separate address spaces. There are screenshots available on freshmeat.net showing this feat. A newer version called Pistachio also has this capability.

QNX is an operating system that has been around since the early 1980s and has a very minimalistic microkernel design. This system has been far more successful than Mach in achieving the goals of the microkernel paradigm. It is used in situations where software is not allowed to fail. This includes the robotic arms on the space shuttle, and machines that grind glass to very fine tolerances (a tiny mistake may cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, as in the case of the mirror of the Hubble Space Telescope).

piratePenguin

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #50 on: 20 November 2005, 21:03 »
Quote from: H_TeXMeX_H
If Linux came from Minix, why isn't it a multi-server microkenel ?
Linux didn't come from Minix (well the name did, that's it). Minix sucked ass. The guy(s) who developed it developed it for educational purposes, so students could easily understand how everything worked. They also charged for it, which some people didn't like.

The GNU Hurd also sucked (to quote ESR, "it was already clear
that HURD had become an exercise in intellectual masturbation"). So people had a wonderful mostly-GNU userland and a shit kernel. Linus Torvalds, in Finland, got himself a 386 CPU (or something) and in an effort to learn more about how it worked and all, he started work on a kernel for it. He called it Linux after Minix, and it took off. It's a monolithic kernel because it's simpler that way, it's not hard to get the advantages of single-server microkernel with it (e.g. with modules), and because microkernels were really complicated to debug (not really true anymore. Alot has changed since 1991.), etc. Linus Torvalds kinda violently hates the microkernel philosophy, especially the Hurd.
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #51 on: 20 November 2005, 21:08 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
And then I'd pop in and say "NT is a single-server microkernel, and Linux has basically all the (technical and non-technical) benefits of that already. Single-server microkernels are basically equal to well-designed monolithic kernels (like Linux). If NT was a multi-server microkenel like the Hurd or Minix, and it worked well, it could have functionality that Linux couldn't dream off without a complete redesign and a few sloppy hacks. NT would be technically superior to Linux, there would be no question.".


Right so Hurd and Minux are technically superiour to Linux, if this is true then why doesn't anyone use them?
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H_TeXMeX_H

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #52 on: 20 November 2005, 21:10 »
Because they suck ... the well written Linux/GNU kernel is better than the badly written Hurd and Minux kernels ... and NT, of course ... it's actually a "hybrid" kernel.

piratePenguin

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #53 on: 20 November 2005, 21:25 »
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
Right so Hurd and Minux are technically superiour to Linux, if this is true then why doesn't anyone use them?
I never said they were technically superior. Minix definetly isn't and probably never will be, unless someone else does the job for them. Minix is for educational purposes only.

The Hurd on gnumach works but it sucks (gnumach isn't a great microkernel anymore.). It crashes under the smallest of loads. It's not secure. It's drivers come from Linux 2.2 (i.e. not alot of supported hardware, no recent hardware.).

They're in the process of porting the Hurd to a different microkernel, L4Ka::Pistachio. Nothing much works yet though, you can boot it up and a wonderful 'banner' program automatically runs and prints some text to the screen. There's no filesystem or anything though. It's unusable.

You would want to be insane to suggest either of Minix or the Hurd on either gnumach or L4 to be technically superior to Linux. Minix is barely usable, the Hurd isn't even.

However, I imagine if the Hurd is ever complete (or even ready), on L4 or some other microkernel (there's actually talk about switching microkernels, again), there won't be a question about which is technically superior between it and Linux.

The Hurd will do things Linux can't dream of (at least not without a redesign). For example, persistance (probably, depends on if the developers actually do this, but apparantly doing this will make other things easier, and it seems like right now they're up for it.), which means that any time there's a power cut or something, or you shut down the system, you can continue from right where you left off, basically immediatly (after BIOS, bootloader, and that). That and a few other things (translators (which already work), for example) would make it technically superior to Linux. And them things are only so easy because of it's wonderful multi-server microkernel design.
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #54 on: 20 November 2005, 22:39 »
Exactly even though Minux and Hurd have a better design model it doesn't make them technically superiour to Linux. The same goes for Firefox, even though XUL may be a better design model it doesn't make Firefox technically superior to Opera.
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piratePenguin

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #55 on: 20 November 2005, 22:49 »
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
Exactly even though Minux and Hurd have a better design model it doesn't make them technically superiour to Linux. The same goes for Firefox, even though XUL may be a better design model it doesn't make Firefox technically superior to Opera.
The Hurd and Minix designs are by no means complete. The Hurd's goals have yet to be met.

Mozilla's XUL stuff is only being refined now. It's mostly-complete. If I could say the same thing about the Hurd, I'd probably be saying that it's technically superior to Linux aswell.

It depends on how much you appreciate the design I guess. I've read alot about XUL, and I like it. The only bad stuff I've ever heard about it is from you and skyman, and I dunno where you get it from.
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
 - Noah And The Whale: Give a little love



a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

solemnwarning

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #56 on: 21 November 2005, 08:51 »
Konqueror pwns all browsers :D
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
 Version: 3.1
 GCS/CM d- s+:+ a--- C++ UL++++>$ P+ L+++ !E W++ !N !o !K-- w !O !M !V PS+ PE- !Y !PGP !t !5 !X !R tv b+ DI+ !D G e- h !r y-
 ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

piratePenguin

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"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
 - Noah And The Whale: Give a little love



a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #58 on: 12 March 2006, 04:01 »
Quote from: solemnwarning
Konqueror pwns all browsers :D

Konqueror's probably one of the fastest browsers around but that's because it's integrated into the desktop like IE.
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WMD

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Re: Kill Bill's Browser
« Reply #59 on: 12 March 2006, 05:02 »
More like the desktop was integrated into Konqueror.  Which isn't much better, really.
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