Windows Sucks

[toadlife]

I know very, very little about the server/business world. But anyhow, why do you upgrade the server "every three or four years"?
If I bought a $25,000 computer, I would hope it would last forever.

Well you manyt times you don't need to if your apps, and number of users never changes, but if they do, then upgrading to more powerfull hardware can become neccessay.
 
For example, the online class server I run required dual 800Mhz Xeon processors three years ago. The version we run today has lots more featues, and now requires dual 2.8Ghz Xeon processors.
 
Our current server (that we bought three years ago), has five Xeon 733 processors, and while it does most things okay, for some functions that require large database queries, it just doesn't cut it. We are replacing it with a quad Opteron 2.6 server. Based on what we have seen, we think this new server should last us at least five years.
 
In five years, there will either be a new version that has many more features and higher requirements, and/or we will have explanded our number of online classes, and will require new hardware.

[muzzy]

People with high uptimes are typically people who don't patch nor upgrade stuff. If you upgrade your server software every now and then, you're going to have to restart it anyway. That means downtime. Rebooting after software upgrade also means downtime, but it also means you know the new server software will start up if you have to reboot. It's not uncommon for people to hack stuff on the fly to get things working, then screw up while writing startup scripts. The simple act of rebooting verifies that you won't be fucked when you HAVE TO reboot, for one reason or another.

[mobrien_12]

People with high uptimes are typically people who don't patch nor upgrade stuff. If you upgrade your server software every now and then, you're going to have to restart it anyway. That means downtime. Rebooting after software upgrade also means downtime, but it also means you know the new server software will start up if you have to reboot. It's not uncommon for people to hack stuff on the fly to get things working, then screw up while writing startup scripts. The simple act of rebooting verifies that you won't be fucked when you HAVE TO reboot, for one reason or another.

See, here is the difference between Linux and Windows.

Let me give you an example.  I update my SSH software, just type

Code: [Select]


service sshd restart

And ssh is restarted.  

The downtime is just a second.

Because this script is exactly the same as the one called by the SysV-like initialization routine, I KNOW it will work when I reboot.  

I only have to reboot when putting a new kernel on, which admittedly has happened more often than I like this year.

[muzzy]

Yes, most distributions have a mechanism for doing this kind of stuff, but if you're running anything unusual, you might have to write the scripts yourself. And they might break when you upgrade, for various reasons. And the restart script might still work, because the system is in a good state as result of running the old version, yet it could fail at reboot.

I suppose it's not such an issue if you only run ssh and apache, with stuff tested by distributor.

[mobrien_12]

Yes, most distributions have a mechanism for doing this kind of stuff, but if you're running anything unusual, you might have to write the scripts yourself. And they might break when you upgrade, for various reasons. And the restart script might still work, because the system is in a good state as result of running the old version, yet it could fail at reboot.

I suppose it's not such an issue if you only run ssh and apache, with stuff tested by distributor.

Point taken about SysV scripts sometimes needing to be hand written.  But
even then you can just start daemons with a single line added to rc.local.


I have been running Linux since 1997, with about 20 assorted installs on various hardware.  I have a habit of adding software (including server software) that is not standard with distributions and updating with software straight from their distributors websites (OpenSSH, OpenSSL, Apache, Samba, Webmin, etc.).  I have never had problems with the server software failing on reboot if I can start them after installation.

And if anyone is doing this, they know enough to handle the startup scripting.

[muzzy]

"Human error is inevitable input to any complex system". Can't remember who said that, but that quote applies right here. People make mistakes, and it's better to have downtime during time you can choose beforehand. It's not like it costs that much to keep the site down a minute or two during sunday night, if everything works out fine. And if one minute of downtime has a significant cost, then it could be cheaper to just replicate the whole server and have backup take over when downtime occurs. And again, reboot won't have a significant cost.

Server uptime is not an absolute value by itself. It's insignificant.

[BobTheHob]

"Human error is inevitable input to any complex system". Can't remember who said that, but that quote applies right here. People make mistakes, and it's better to have downtime during time you can choose beforehand. It's not like it costs that much to keep the site down a minute or two during sunday night, if everything works out fine. And if one minute of downtime has a significant cost, then it could be cheaper to just replicate the whole server and have backup take over when downtime occurs. And again, reboot won't have a significant cost.

Server uptime is not an absolute value by itself. It's insignificant.

Alas, you must remember human input is also vital to the operation of computer, as a server with no OS is worthless. But it helps to have good programmers doing the input the first time, this is a big reason why windoze is such crap.

Sure, load balancing helps to combat downtime, but only if it works properly. I've used '03 Datacenter and its load balancing (along with most of everything else) is trash.

[muzzy]

You seemed to miss my point. The quote is a murphy's law type of thing, which means that people will screw up, and the only way around it is to design around it, and assume it will happen. Testing is so much harder to screw up, as long as the test provides meaningful results

[noob]

windows is so buggy is because its made by so many people. now, if M$ installed borg implants into all tyhe programmers, they could think as one, and fix all bugs at the programing stage.

[Jenda]

Ouch...

[Aloone_Jonez]

windows is so buggy is because its made by so many people.

I'm very sorry I don't normally defend Microsoft but this is blatantly bollocks, so MS software is shit because so many people are involved in writing it! Bullshit far more people are involved in writing Linux than Windows so I suppose this means by your logic that Linux is more buggy than Windows!

You are as you nickname says a noob!

now, if M$ installed borg implants into all tyhe programmers, they could think as one, and fix all bugs at the programing stage.

!

!

Haaaaa Haaaa Haaaaa!

   

[Annorax]

windows is so buggy is because its made by so many people. now, if M$ installed borg implants into all tyhe programmers, they could think as one, and fix all bugs at the programing stage.

Yeah, but that'd mean they'd have to take nanoprobes out of all the windows boxes to start the assimilation process, and we all know they won't like that idea.

[Jenda]

if M$ installed borg implants into all tyhe programmers, they could think as one, and fix all bugs at the programing stage.

I'd betcha anything that those borg implans are NOT gonna run Windows... that would be a BIG (not only) BSOD disaster!!!

Just imagine the News:
Microsoft employees run Linux - or s it Linux that runs MS employees?

[RaZoR1394]

Just to answer the main question...

Windows sucks. What more can we say? Everybody hates it, but why does everybody use it?

1. Most "out of the box" ready computers are bundled with Windows. These days It's either XP Home or XP Pro. If It's a server they are probably bundled with Windows 2003 server standard or a special version (datacenter ...).

2. Most computer courses, at least over here are made with Windows.

3. Many schools use Windows even when the computers are only meant to be used for typing, printing and internet.

4. "Normal" folks use Windows mostly because they feel like it simply works for their needs. They don't care so much about philosophical reasons, security, stability, standards, manufacturers support and business practices. They probably don't use the computer so often either.

5. Most OS commercial/ads I've seen involves Windows.

6. Proprietary software. Most high quality pay software including games are made for Windows. This may be one of the biggest reasons why people use Windows. especially the more advanced users. Some examples of common software that make people locked to Windows are Photoshop, Autodesk products like Autocad and 3dsmax, Illustrator, Quark express, Dreamweaver, Flash, Fireworks etc. Wine, crossover and Cedega fixes that partyly though.

 Well, there are probably more, reasons why people use Winblows instead of for ex GNU/Linux or MacOSX but those are what I could think of.

edit:

*** And why I hate Windows hehe....

1. Bloat and more bloat. In XP the standard GUI looks like shit and you're forced to hack the system files if you wan't it to look better (change to third party theme). The "better" gui also requires an extra resource hogging service and is kind of patched on the old gui win2000.

2. Worms, viruses and spyware. The security structure in Windows is a joke which let's any kind of malware to get installed if you don't have some kind of protection. Sometimes even the best antivirus apps like Kaspersky and Nod32 won't protect you good enough so that something could eventually slip in. I've seen many cases where people haven't been able to clean viruses and have been forced to reinstall.

3. Updates and service pack make the OS grow larger and larger. This is kinda annoying. In Gentoo, the updater (portage) installs the new files and remove the old ones. If there are problems occuring with the new versions you just mask the new ones and install the old ones back. In windows Windows update keeps all the old crap in the Windows folder. I remember once my Windows install was like 3gb+. After reinstalling with a fully updated nLite disc it left a footprint of like 300mb or something similar.

4. Integrated apps that aint removable. IE, WMP, winMSN and other integrated apps are supposed to be removable, Well what those instructions actually does is to just hide them and keep them lurking in the background. Also, they still run if you find the executables. nLite can fix such things but removing IE can damage functionality in the OS. This also makes it difficult to run their newer OS's on older computers.

5. Third party apps needed to run and install the OS smoothly. This is one of the most annoying parts of the OS. Should you really be forced to use an antivirus, antispyware, firewall, defragger, registry cleaner, registry defragger, bad application entry cleaner, tweaker (for GUI, internet connection etc) just to make the OS comfortable and running on track. Why do I need to get an third party app like nlite to disable all the crap the XP installs with a standard disc? Shouldn't these things be inbuilt inside the OS?

6. When not following (no 5) the OS get's slower and slower and finally kind off dies.

7. No good maintainance mode. As I read somewhere "safe mode" just swaps the configuration files and still boots into the GUI. There are many cases where "safe-mode" fails to start. I also prefer coding and browsing in CLI-only mode.

8. Drivers. In Windows you need to download drivers from the manufacturer and install it ontop of the kernel. In GNU/linux you'll just compile it in the kernel. Installing extra software for the mouse and for ex joysticks to enable extra features isn't what I call smooth. And darnit, why do I need a floppy everytime I need to install the OS on a SATA disk?

9. Architecture. Win32 is built for i386 computers. Well all the optimisations you get in for ex Gentoo isn't exactly big optimisations but at least it's something.

*** Why I don't like Microsoft

1. Microsoft lies in their Getthefacts report. It's obvious that their research is BS. They are talking about Red hat like it was like all other distros. The opponent products they test are also dated.

2. EU software patents. MS are one of the biggest pushers of this extremely idiotic phenomena. Software patents could probably kill creativity, competition, etc. on the software market. This will add more power to Microsofts domination and force us to use their crap. The pressure would also let up on their products so they wouldn't have to patch their OS as they do today (can it actually get worse..?). I read somewhere that MS has patents on double mouseclicks. WTF?

3. TCG and NGSCB. These technologies will take away freedom from anyone using a fritz chip enabled computer. Using their newer OS's with TCG enabled computers will mean that you are even more surveiled and locked in. Every software maker will need to pay a special fee to Microsoft to make their software running on the newer TCG enabled Windows OS'es. This means that freeware and shareware apps + apps from makers who don't have enough money "will be no more". Also, audio cd and dvd ripping will probably not work.

4. Innovations. From what I've heard and read they are either buying small companies or copying ideas from other persons/companies.

------------------------------------

Also one thing that makes me clueless are Windows users who say that we Linux and FreeBSD users are just using our OS's to be cool. WTF? I use my OS because of the reasons above and note because of status or similar. Are Windows users jealous or something?

I also don't understand how some of you say that compability is a strength of Windows? Ehhhr...

If I was some kind of god I would make Microsoft totally bankrupt. :cool: Unlike some other people I find it very good that EU are stopping Microsoft with fines and new rules.

[adiment]

Windows sucks. What more can we say? Everybody hates it, but why does everybody use it?

hassle free Gaming.

Not everybody hates it.