Stop Microsoft
All Things Microsoft => Microsoft Software => Topic started by: suselinux on 3 May 2003, 16:05
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I was thinking (now this might be unintellectual dribble compared to what some of the other members here consider in day to day life, but bare with me I've had a revelation) and I figured out why Windows
SHEEP ,I mean users, think open source software is crap.
The only thing that Windows Users hear when some one talks about OPEN SOURCE software is the word FREE. either because they ignore the code part of the explanation because they never realise some one actually wrote that OS or App. they honestly dont consider the creation of software before the stage of printing the CD or DVD,s that it comes on.
Or they only hear the word Free because they still
have flashbacks of the agonny of giving someone fivehundred dollars for two CD's with a couple of shiny decals on em.
And a Windows User's only experience with free software (I am excluding Mozilla, OpenOffice etc they were designed for linux first) tends to be second rate or superfulous crap(couldn't spell that with a dictionary beside me)
sorry but free ware and sharware just do not compare to GNU and GPL products.
So when A Windows user hears about this "Free" opensource OS called LINUX, all they have to compare the idea of this "FREE" "LINUX" thing to is the crappy stuff they get from Download.com.
How the hell do you deal with a stigma like that eh? :confused:
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quote:
have flashbacks of the agonny of giving someone fivehundred dollars for two CD's with a couple of shiny decals on em.
I didn't get shiny decals on the Windows XP "recovery" cd that came with my PC. Jesus christ I've missed out on the best part! :D
edit: and, yeah you've hit the nail on the head
[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]
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I see a lot of "noise" about corporations not renewing their M$ licenses. I think Linux is very much going to be a part of the corporate IT infrastructure.
The home PC user, their another breed. Why they insist on buying a Window$ PC is beyond me. If I had the money, I would buy a Mac but I just can't justify spending that kind of money right now. Particularly when SuSe Linux is doing all I need right now !
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The problem I usually have when telling people about Linux, is that they seem to think it's illegal since it's free... that's pretty sad. They're living in a world where if something is free, it can't possibly be legal... and hell, even after I explain the whole open source bit, they still seem skeptical about how that can be legal. CUMPUTAR PRGRAMS PAY FOR$$$ ARJAJAJA
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Mozilla and OOo were designed for Linux first? I don't think that's a very true statement.
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Being a windows (and linux) user myself I can say that what you said is not true. I build my own PCs and install windows 2K/XP on them purely because I like them, then I make a partition for Linux and install that too. People like windows for its stability and if you tell me its unstable then the last version of windows you probably used was Windows 98. I remember when Linux was more stable but not many software companies and game developers would recognize it as something that is worth their time. Now more people are starting to use it however in a post win2k world, Linux has lost the stability edge. However if someone is stuck on Windows 98 or WinME and can't afford a new version of windows then I fully recommend Linux to them.
Its just that for the average user windows is easy to use, there is great support and help for it, chances are one of your friends can help you if you get stuck and mostly its because they know about MicroSoft and hear that windows is good. However if the average user gets linux and they get stuck, which they will, all of their friends are like "WTF?!". Basically MicroSoft has established itself well into the minds of consumers and Linux is not for everyone. Windows isn't evil, windows is for the average joe or people that like flashy things and games.
Just my $.02
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quote:
Originally posted by AmarokShadow:
Being a windows (and linux) user myself I can say that what you said is not true. I build my own PCs and install windows 2K/XP on them purely because I like them, then I make a partition for Linux and install that too. People like windows for its stability and if you tell me its unstable then the last version of windows you probably used was Windows 98. I remember when Linux was more stable but not many software companies and game developers would recognize it as something that is worth their time. Now more people are starting to use it however in a post win2k world, Linux has lost the stability edge. However if someone is stuck on Windows 98 or WinME and can't afford a new version of windows then I fully recommend Linux to them.
Its just that for the average user windows is easy to use, there is great support and help for it, chances are one of your friends can help you if you get stuck and mostly its because they know about MicroSoft and hear that windows is good. However if the average user gets linux and they get stuck, which they will, all of their friends are like "WTF?!". Basically MicroSoft has established itself well into the minds of consumers and Linux is not for everyone. Windows isn't evil, windows is for the average joe or people that like flashy things and games.
Just my $.02
(http://l337images.com/images/picture145.jpg)
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quote:
People like windows for its stability
HOLY FUCKING SHIT! What in Gods name is WRONG with you? Are you not sane! Get help! Flap, you are damn right. :D
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and if you tell me its unstable then the last version of windows you probably used was Windows 98
What I have seen in Windows XP in less than 6 months:
3 BSOD (device driver in infinite loop anyone?)
5 "Lets reboot so they dont see the BSOD" on my machine alone
2 "Oh look it trashed a file you needed to boot with"
50+ Program crashes
15 Complete system halts, lets hit the reset button
Countless instances of "ctrl-alt-delete" being a necessity
Countless application crashes
I've also had to put up with a "windows virtual memory too low - windows is increasing the size of your paging file" within ten god damn minutes of logging onto the Windows 2K computer I needed to fill the details on my uni account. I checked the process and all it had was "system" process like scvhost and internet explorer running. On 128 meg of ram. And it needed a bigger swap file. And don't ask my why it automatically resized the swapfile or why a normal level user had permission to do so. And do you now what happens when a swapfile is increased to fill the entire drive? Yes thats right, the computer is well fucked.
Oh and how many security holes has Windows had in the last 6 or so months? Like millions? Like the one that you could embed in HTML to delete your choice of browsing users files? Like the one that let you read a users files? BTW got any cup holders lately?
What about viruses? In the last 6 or so months before I started on Linux I was hit by 9 seperate variants of the fuckers and I dont even open attachments! joke_russa, joke_smallpen, nimda, blah blah blah, god damnit people get an OS that is at least a bit more resistant to these things! Jesus christ the dude running the apache server on our network has actually had to disconnect users until their "nimda infection is brought under control." And by "brought under control" I don't mean "removed" I mean "brought under control to the level were the logs are readable and two out of three logs aren't describing a nimda attack." If I boot into this shit OS I have to put up with "norton has detected and cleaned nimda" twenty times an hour! Do you have any idea how annoying that is when your playing a game and it minimises that often to tell you that it just cleaned up a nimda file?
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I really did not meen for this to turn into a debate about windows VS Linux, I wanted to point out that windows users are conditioned to think that if you don't pay for it its crap.
suselinux
BUT since you had to go and bring up all of this stuff(AmarokShadow)why did you even join a forum at FuckMSN when you are clearly endorsing it.
Microsoft Might be easier to use for the average joe, it might be getting closer to being stable, but its the principle of the thing.
I think I can speak for most people on this forum when I say that it feals fucking great to read all of this digusting shit about MS, and then realize that your reading all of this with jaguar or galeon or mozilla, or netscape and thats running on BSD or Solaris or Linux or MAC OS and we know that our minds are free.
fuck me eh! does any one else feel that way or am i misrepresenting the whole community?
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quote:
Originally posted by suselinux:
I was thinking (now this might be unintellectual dribble compared to what some of the other members here consider in day to day life, but bare with me I've had a revelation) and I figured out why Windows
SHEEP ,I mean users, think open source software is crap.
The only thing that Windows Users hear when some one talks about OPEN SOURCE software is the word FREE. either because they ignore the code part of the explanation because they never realise some one actually wrote that OS or App. they honestly dont consider the creation of software before the stage of printing the CD or DVD,s that it comes on.
Or they only hear the word Free because they still
have flashbacks of the agonny of giving someone fivehundred dollars for two CD's with a couple of shiny decals on em.
And a Windows User's only experience with free software (I am excluding Mozilla, OpenOffice etc they were designed for linux first) tends to be second rate or superfulous crap(couldn't spell that with a dictionary beside me)
sorry but free ware and sharware just do not compare to GNU and GPL products.
So when A Windows user hears about this "Free" opensource OS called LINUX, all they have to compare the idea of this "FREE" "LINUX" thing to is the crappy stuff they get from Download.com.
How the hell do you deal with a stigma like that eh? :confused:
translation: these people are simple people, basic people, morons.
treat them with sympathetic kindness.
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Whats wrong with Windows users is that nobody (with no knowledge) whant's to compile source. What they don't understand is that they have bigger problems when using binary(virusses,trojans e.t.c) my company develops both on Windows and Linux but I prefer windows as a programer because they are far faster and far more flexible than windows is.
I can't count how many time I lost source code because of Windows and how many times I had to format my Pc and loose data again (I hate B*ll G*tes)
The only think I have to say don't use Windows the suck ass
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No offense chaizak but is english your second language? If it's not please spend more time reviewing your spelling. If you don't speak english natively, sorry, ignore me. :D
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I prefer windows as a programer because they are far faster and far more flexible than windows is.
What?
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I really did not meen for this to turn into a debate about windows VS Linux, I wanted to point out that windows users are conditioned to think that if you don't pay for it its crap.
Sorry about that suselinux, i couldn't resist telling off this goon.
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I think he meant to write that he prefers Linux as a programmer. :confused:
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That's what I think too, but I wanted some clarity. ;)
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I think the biggest fear is the M$ Office compatability. I encounter that a fair bit. "Will my Word/Excel files still work ?"
If the PC manufacturers started to offer Linux installs and maybe if Frys and Comp Usa trained their staff to be a bit more savvy, then Linux could maybe just get into the mainstream. With Dell and Gateway being Pentium and M$ bitch, what can you expect ?
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quote:
Originally posted by HibbeeBoy:
I think the biggest fear is the M$ Office compatability. I encounter that a fair bit. "Will my Word/Excel files still work ?"
If the PC manufacturers started to offer Linux installs and maybe if Frys and Comp Usa trained their staff to be a bit more savvy, then Linux could maybe just get into the mainstream. With Dell and Gateway being Pentium and M$ bitch, what can you expect ?
Its kinda funny of all the retailers
WALMART offers Linux OEM PC's. Its funny because they are so big we see them as the steriotypical BIG BUSINESS.
Wanna start a revelution call the smaller "mom and pop" computer retailers, your local guys, and ask if they can give you Linux pre installed, or atleast sell you a box set with your computer.
If they say no ask why, then ask other people to ask the same question (ask the same establishment)
if they see enough of an intrest they'll bite.
The only ones who won't, are the ones who think that they will be risking there MS OEM licensce.
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quote:
Originally posted by suselinux:
Its kinda funny of all the retailers
WALMART offers Linux OEM PC's. Its funny because they are so big we see them as the steriotypical BIG BUSINESS.
Wanna start a revelution call the smaller "mom and pop" computer retailers, your local guys, and ask if they can give you Linux pre installed, or atleast sell you a box set with your computer.
If they say no ask why, then ask other people to ask the same question (ask the same establishment)
if they see enough of an intrest they'll bite.
The only ones who won't, are the ones who think that they will be risking there MS OEM licensce.
Unfortunately, I view Wal-Mart as another evil entity. So, in the meantime, my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Oh, and goodluck discussing Linux with the goons that work in Wal-Mart (Asda). If you ever want to feel better about yourself, go to a Wal-Mart after 10:00pm. Jeez, it's like the Riverside County Fare !
[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: HibbeeBoy ]
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What I have seen in Windows XP in less than 6 months:
(i don't feel like quoteing the whole thing, scroll up if you want to see what i'm talking about)
i don't know what ur problem is dude, but something is seriously wrong with ur pc. i have Win2k and WinXP (along with 4 distros of linux), and i don't have near the problems you listed. i will gladly admit that i don't really use winXP that often, it's more like i'm using it to test stuff out with it, but i haven't had any major problems with it (although i did have to reinstall it simply because i installed win2k--winXP doesn't like co-existing with another version of windows). i do have more problems with it then i do with win2k though.
I do agree with AmarokShadow, and if you are having that many problems with windows, then either you are screwing around with it too much (which shouldn't cause problems...i WANT to be able to screw around with my computer) or your computer is a POS (by microsoft's standards). the average computer user will NOT be able to install Linux--not even redhat with it's extremely easy installer. most people have trouble running MS Word, and you are expecting these people to be able to run a linux system?! BE REALISTIC!!! it will be a long time before the average computer user will have the skill to use linux, even though the level of skill needed is constantly being lowered.
now, don't flame me because i'm 'supporting windows' because i'm not. i an only saying that the majority of people use windows because it does everything they want it to. they are not concerned with computer security, and are bearly worried about stability. in my programming 3 class, people were practically cheering when a classmate had a BSOD while logging in (win98 with Novell). They didn't get frustrated, they didn't care, they thought it was "cool" that he got windows to lockup while doing something so simple as logging in. these people are not ready to use a REAL operating system. they have the minds of children and would not be able to comprend linux.
sorry for the long post...and i kinda got off topic...i hope more people will convert to linux, but as suselinux said, they see Free and Linux together and think Free+anything=crap
edit: oh, and walmart doesn't have anything to do with linux, or at least the walmart around me. i was hoping they would sell boxed sets of linux oses, but they didn't even know what linux was!!
[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: Siplus: *Capitalist* ]
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Walmarts in my city have been selling boxed sets of 'Drake for a while.
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Its funny you would post this under the name suselinux, as it one of the few distos tahts a pain in the a$$ to get free. . . .
(I actually like Suse though, just because I've used it since 6.0)
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quote:
Originally posted by NM:
Its funny you would post this under the name suselinux, as it one of the few distos tahts a pain in the a$$ to get free. . . .
(I actually like Suse though, just because I've used it since 6.0)
I Know, I know. SuSE can be a pain to get free but that is because they bundle some commercial stuff. And I don't think YAST is GPL. but if you look hard enough you can find sites that carry it. I don't know of any right now.
SuSE may not be free but it is MOSTLY opensource.
and that is what counts. I am willing to buy SuSE
because I want to see them survive and if you like a distro buy the next version or it just might die.
I heard Mandrake was applying for FRENCH bankruptcy protection.
Remember I said that idiots, I mean Win losers, I mean users don't like opensource, and for the MOST part OPEN SOURCE is coincidentally free not necesarily free (need spell check in these message boxes) I say free in a monitary context.
Xandros (I've heard) is terrible for what you talk about. I don't think you can get a copy off a website, and I have read that it is very hard to get source code from them. But that could have been someone who bought a bargain version and read the specs wrong.
Call me a hipocrit if you like. It would not be the first time.
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siplus said:
do agree with AmarokShadow, and if you are having that many problems with windows, then either you are screwing around with it too much (which shouldn't cause problems...i WANT to be able to screw around with my computer) or your computer is a POS (by microsoft's standards). the average computer user will NOT be able to install Linux--not even redhat with it's extremely easy installer. most people have trouble running MS Word, and you are expecting these people to be able to run a linux system?! BE REALISTIC!!! it will be a long time before the average computer user will have the skill to use linux, even though the level of skill needed is constantly being lowered.
now, don't flame me because i'm 'supporting windows' because i'm not.
I wont flame you, but I use SuSE because it has a GUI for everything. I have been usng SuSE for arond year and a bit. I have NEVER installed a TAR in the shell. I have done RPM in and out of the shell but thats just too simple.
and that dosent mean that I only use the packages SuSE came with. I use Mozzila 1.4 and OOo 1.1
both developer beta. and I mention those two because they were compressed in the most ingenious way a working .bin (or something) file in the tar that opens a graphic installer. No shell needed just extract to the desktop and run all graphicaly.
That IS easy If you can Use MAC OS you canfigure out Linux.
I really feel sorry for windows losers who are locked in because figuring out linux for yourself is where all the fun is.
Dont tell me that we all here now that were better than most people because I (you) figured out Linux
and with no help.
Windows might be easy, but Linux is logical thats why anyone canfigure out Linux.
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I wont flame you, but I use SuSE because it has a GUI for everything. I have been usng SuSE for arond year and a bit. I have NEVER installed a TAR in the shell. I have done RPM in and out of the shell but thats just too simple.
in my opinion using a Unix like system purely from the GUI is a bit of a waste, but i am sure that most MacOSX users would disagree with me (and MacOSX is probably the most popular *ix at the moment). The fact that you (and red hat users, mandrake users et cetera) can use the GUI for anything (almost) that you want to do is great, and shows the flexibility that linux (and other open source systems, like *BSD) can give you. closed systems like MacOSX do have the flexibility and power of unix, but in my opinion cannot compete with linux et al, many MacOSX users are aware that there is any other way to do things than the GUI, and many GNU/BSD tools that linux users take for granted do not (or so i hear) come with MacOSX.
This is not intended as a MacOSX flame, i just use it as an example of a modern proprietary *ix, my real point is that with linux and it's ilk, you get a lot of choice.
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i don't know what ur problem is dude, but something is seriously wrong with ur pc.
OEM supplied, nothing over a year old, all Microsoft certified hardware. And I'm not noobie enough to not know the difference between "my fault" and "it's fault." The win2K problem I had was on one of those locked down tight public computers, so there was nothing at all wrong with it (apart from windows.) Yes, I expect my computer to be able to "go throught the paces" and perform at its best, but I do not overclock it, it sits on less than 30 degrees temp inside the case (<35 CPU temp) and I do regular cleans/defrags/virus scans. The problem is NOT me nor my hardware, the problem is windows not being able to cope with the workload that should be expected of a modern OS.
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You bring up a point that I find hard to explain to other people cause im "ignint". Windows has a tendancy to save everything in these temp files and they cluter your HD, not to mention all of the spyware that is almost unavoidable using Windows. I find that Linux Handles this much better and therfore is not bogged down. I find that the longer you have windows on your computer the slower it gradually gets because so much memory becomes devoted to spyware and space is wasted by all these temp files.
what is MAC OS like in this context
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quote:
Originally posted by suselinux:
Its kinda funny of all the retailers
[
Wanna start a revelution call the smaller "mom and pop" computer retailers, your local guys, and ask if they can give you Linux pre installed, or atleast sell you a box set with your computer.
If they say no ask why, then ask other people to ask the same question (ask the same establishment)
if they see enough of an intrest they'll bite.
The only ones who won't, are the ones who think that they will be risking there MS OEM licensce.
HAHAHA!! FUCK an OEM License!
my shop will build PC's with or without an OS. we will also happily install any Flavor of linux!!
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quote:
Originally posted by HPC GUY:
my shop will build PC's with or without an OS. we will also happily install any Flavor of linux!!
What's that ? You will provide the customer with *gasp* what he wants ??
Nay, lad nay, that business plan is flawed and doomed to failure.
:D
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Windows XP works pretty good for me. So I think this is an example of XP being cursed on Faust's particular hardware configuration.
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Im gonna come out of the closet I use XP at work. when Im on my breaks I surf on XP.
But I didn't inhale!
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most people have trouble running MS Word, and you are expecting these people to be able to run a linux system?
These are typically the sort of people who dont run their own PCs anyway so they never have to see the "difficult" installation/administration side anyway. They only have to walk in to a comp lab and be told how to start openoffice/save docs which most people need to be told how to do anyway under Windows so where is the difference? There are people who are not comfortable with any brand of PC, I've seen frustrated people physically assaulting Mac OS X computers because they couldnt work them out. (I would have told her off... but I was afraid she would take out her anger on me, her being a high ranking honours student and me being the lowly first year and all. Still makes you feel ill to see such lovely hardware being damaged though. :rolleyes: ) People will need to see a help desk dude to "get" certain bits of a linux system on public comps, or even on their own but some people ask others for help all the time with windows anyway so wheres the change?
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Windows XP works pretty good for me. So I think this is an example of XP being cursed on Faust's particular hardware configuration.
Like I said it's all Windows cerified. That said I agree with you - just because it's "certified" doesnt mean they actually tested it or put in the effort to iron out bugs in the drivers. Another example of Windows shittiness - they claim the best hardware support but really they dont bother making the effort to ensure their product works on PC hardware like it should. Wow, we can play russian roullette when we buy XP - will it be buggy on my computer or will I get lucky? :D
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Windows has a tendancy to save everything in these temp files and they cluter your HD
Does anyone else think that cleaning over :eek: 2GIG :eek: of files out using that disk cleanup thing is a bit much??? :rolleyes:
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The biggest problem with deploying PCs in the workplace is allowing the user to have such a complicated appliance. The user should not be involved with or have access to anything that changes the configuration of the appliance. The users sole use of the equipment should be access to the applications they need to do their jobs and not the operating system and the idiosynchrasies of the operating system. The applications need the same support whether running in Window$ or Linux or any other OS. I am surprised to see such a slow take up of thin client technologies although thin client doesn't do much for mobile computing.
I don't find Linux any more difficult or easier to use than Window$ although I like the look and feel of Linux, SuSe in my case.My reasoning for choosing Linux over Window$ would be cost, stability and scalability.
For the home user, well anyone buying a Window$ PC is probably insane. I now find myself steering people away not only from Window$ but Pentium processors, Dell and Gateway and anybody else tied in with Microsoft.
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re: users in the workplace should not have any control over the system:
while i actually agree, this is of course totally contrary to the ethic of the free software foundation. when stallman was working on ITS, he and his associates did not build in password authentication, so that whoever was on the computer was able to do with it whatever they wanted/needed to without asking an administrator. when "they" brought passwords into ITS, stallman cracked people's passwords, then sent them an email saying "i notice your password is xxxxx, why don't you just type <enter> for your password? it's much easier to type and is just as secure." of course his point was, security is false security, and user freedom is paramount. interestingly i also agree with him, albeit paradoxically.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum: hopelessly outnumbered:
re: users in the workplace should not have any control over the system:
while i actually agree, this is of course totally contrary to the ethic of the free software foundation. when stallman was working on ITS, he and his associates did not build in password authentication, so that whoever was on the computer was able to do with it whatever they wanted/needed to without asking an administrator. when "they" brought passwords into ITS, stallman cracked people's passwords, then sent them an email saying "i notice your password is xxxxx, why don't you just type <enter> for your password? it's much easier to type and is just as secure." of course his point was, security is false security, and user freedom is paramount. interestingly i also agree with him, albeit paradoxically.
Free software is one thing, access to confidential information and manipulation of data is something else entirely. So no I don't subscribe to user freedom on the system being paramount. Quite the reverse actually.
Free software I don't have a problem with but commercial grade ERP applications are not free. When you say free, do you mean the cost of acquisistion or free to use/modify/distribute as you like ?
Security on a network I believe to be anything but. Take a look round a typical office, it won't take you long to find a post-it pad with the user id and password written down, probably stuck to the monitor. It is necessary to restrict access to the system in someway, after all you don't want the cleaners (or they'r kids) bolloxing up the PC/System because the PC was turned on. I caught a cleaner's kid sitting playing solitaire on a PC.
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Industrial espianage (How do you spell that?)is an epidemic, especially but not specifically with Software companies, because code is so easy to move. But espianage exists in any industry so even if the software your company uses is free the product your company makes probably isn't.
I think that an open network is fine, as long as it is only open to internal clients. It isn't done to often, but I think that all big companies should have two networks one internal and one external and no client should be able run both at once.
I must admit that I am not employed in this genre of industry I am actually a Second generation Pattern Maker, no I don't cut out dresses and skirts, we make industrial tools for metal casting
plastic manufacturing and forming, and moulds.
So if I sound a little out of the loop sometimes
or unfamiliar with an "Office" environment, cut me a little slack I am here to learn.
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about that password and ID thing on the post-it note, i totaly know what you mean, i've seen that many times before.
people don't just do that with computers, they do it even with their bank card pin numbers. i told a joke about the difference between men and women taking money out of the cash machine to a few friends at school (the one about how many more steps women take). 3 of the people then said "i actually do carry a piece of paper with my pin number on it" :rolleyes:
stupid people are like mentaly handicapped people, you sometimes have to restrict them in order to protect them.
[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: ShawnD1 ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum: hopelessly outnumbered:
re: users in the workplace should not have any control over the system:
while i actually agree, this is of course totally contrary to the ethic of the free software foundation. when stallman was working on ITS, he and his associates did not build in password authentication, so that whoever was on the computer was able to do with it whatever they wanted/needed to without asking an administrator. when "they" brought passwords into ITS, stallman cracked people's passwords, then sent them an email saying "i notice your password is xxxxx, why don't you just type <enter> for your password? it's much easier to type and is just as secure." of course his point was, security is false security, and user freedom is paramount. interestingly i also agree with him, albeit paradoxically.
Not exactly. Stallman was objecting to file security as a means to keep functionally useful data secret, and stop it being shared amongst a community of technically competent people who trusted each other. You can't expect every workplace to be like the MIT AI lab, where everyone needs to use the available resources and you can trust everyone to use them properly.
Stallman has nothing against security in general; and certainly not against user privacy, or restricting access in an environment where it isn't helpful or even desired to give users unrestricted access to the system.