Stop Microsoft
All Things Microsoft => Microsoft Software => Topic started by: hm_murdock on 10 March 2004, 04:15
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Because you don't have to know about /dev/hda or swap partitions. You don't have to know about X11 config files or about configuring CUPS or about networks.
You don't need to know about compiliing stuff, or about how to use apt-get.
And most of all...
PEOPLE WILL HELP YOU IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM! They won't piss at you and yell 'RTFM, YOU FUCKING NEWB!"
Truth.
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what the fuck is up with linux needing 3 partitions
what the hell
No other OS needs 3, even BSD doesn't need 3.
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quote:
Windows is easier to install than Linux
I don't think anyone has ever said Windows is harder to install than Linux. I know I'd never say that because its not true. But one reason Linux is a bit more difficult to install is because it offers so much more choice and control than Windows does.
Also remember that most Linux distros do have an automatic installation option which does everything by itself without annoying the user.
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Immaterial.
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btw
RTFM... NEWB!!
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
what the fuck is up with linux needing 3 partitions
It doesn't. It can go on two. Heck, one, but that's never used.
And Jimmy, you don't need to know about X11 config and stuff like that anymore.
[ March 09, 2004: Message edited by: WMD ]
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Hmm.. Small price to pay for peace of mind if you ask me. Took me forever to get comfortable with using Slackware, but now I couldn't live without it. The noob distros are a piece of cake to install though.
Windows works better with a seperate swap (I can't remember what MS calls a swap) partition too you know, works better. I also don't want to lose stuff in my home directory if I want to install a different or newer distro, so having a seperate /home partition is just time-saving ;) .
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You can get help on Linux, you just need to know where to go. To use a computer you need to be able to find the "support forums" link on LinuxISO, where you most likely downloaded Linux. That easy.
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let me sum up all the Linux help forums,
wait for it... wait for it.
"RTFM n00b!"
there. that is the only "Tech Support" offered by the helpful linux community.
ammendum, reading documentation is the first mistake of application design. the user interface NEEDS to be intuitive, consistent and logical
The application should "just work" without having to dig through man-pages
[ March 10, 2004: Message edited by: root@localhost / BOB ]
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hey restin,
RTFM, NOOB!!!!!!1111111LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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quote:
root@localhost / BOB: there. that is the only "Tech Support" offered by the helpful linux community.
Red Hat and United Linux offers helpdesk support through the telephone.
And the guys at http://www.openopen.org/ (http://www.openopen.org/) and http://www.newtolinux.org.uk/ (http://www.newtolinux.org.uk/) will never "RTFM" you ;)
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As if MS tech support was any better. I've actually dealt with them before. When you call them, first you'll have to spend at least 40 minutes on hold. Then they'll make you give them your name, address, computer information, and Windows serial number. Then if you tell them you're installing Windows non-default enviornent (dual boot, non C partition, on a PC with Linux, etc...) they'll tell you to fuck off because they only provide tech support "recommended setups" (AKA one OS on one PC on the default partition).
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linuxquestions.org has some pretty friendly people there that have always helped me out. If you ask a question nicely and give enough info for them to go off of, then it doesn't make sense that they'd bitch at you for it. Don't ask stupid questions.
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M$ has quite an interesting eula ( or whatever they call it). To get tech support you have to allow m$ to do whatever they want to your pc, read whatever they want, and make whatever changes they want. That's ok isn't it?
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Hate to say it, but Linux isn't really for people who don't know how to read!
http://www.tldp.org/ (http://www.tldp.org/)
But if anyone needs help, just ask. I don't know where JJ has been getting his Linux advice, but it ain't anywhere I have been.
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I don't know either.
why is it that so many people DO IN FACT have the same impressions of Linux? difficult to install, hard to install new apps, impossible to find useful support ,et cetera?
are all of these people hallucinating? no. they aren't.
the issues are real. deal with them now before they forever kill Linux's chances on the desktop.
a few people are doing what they can!
http://calix.calyptos.com (http://calix.calyptos.com) is a good example. It's Linux, but you won't find /usr, or /lib or any of that. You won't find apt-get or RPM. Instead, there's folders like /Software and /System, and apps are in bundles that are drag-and-drop, just like NeXTStep and Mac OS X. All of this with KDE.
Now it's time for all of the Linux and OSS movement to embrace these ideas, for they are the future. Embrace the ideas of NO MORE FUCKING UNIX. UNIX, while a firm foundation, is something that deserves to be left "behind the curtain". It should be dragged OUT of the light and thrust into the depths where it belongs. UNIX is ugly. UNIX is arcane, and ancient. It needs to do what it does best. Be the plumbing, and let something else interact with the user.
Linux tries so hard to be a UNIX clone that it makes it hard on the user. And developers try as hard as they can to NOT cover up the ass ugly UNIX mess. Instead, they simply put a candy coating over it. There isn't even a half-hearted attempt to make it friendly. And in the end, it ends up being a condescending, intimidating mess.
Ask users who've tried it, looking for an alternative to Windows, and have decided to simply go back to it because it wasn't worth it to them to have to do everything through the MOST COMPLEX WAYS IMAGINABLE.
Now the argument is over. I'm right, you're wrong.
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quote:
why is it that so many people DO IN FACT have the same impressions of Linux? difficult to install, hard to install new apps, impossible to find useful support ,et cetera?
Unfortunately, first impressions are lasting impressions. There once was a time when all of that was quite true. "Ask users who've tried it, looking for an alternative to Windows, and have decided to simply go back to it because it wasn't worth it to them to have to do everything through the MOST COMPLEX WAYS IMAGINABLE." And those users will tell everyone all about it. What they fail to consider is that progress moves onward. Just because they had a hard time with something like Red Hat 5.0, doesn't mean that they'd have the same problems today. Either that, or these n00bs tried something like Slackware, Debian or Gentoo, none of which are "newbie" distros, nor do they present themselves as such.
Secondly, we've seen a campaign of FUD going on for nearly five years now. Sling enough 5h17 against the wall, and some of it is bound to stick. These days, newbie-friendly distros such as Mandrake are really NBD to install. There's no need to do any editing of any config files. ELX is even easier. The ELX installer kicks off with an X Server, includes hyperlinked help, and installs quite easily. The only OS that has an easier install is QNX.
As for installing apps, both Debian and Gentoo make this quite easy:
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It's Linux, but you won't find /usr, or /lib or any of that. You won't find apt-get or RPM. Instead, there's folders like /Software and /System, and apps are in bundles that are drag-and-drop, just like NeXTStep and Mac OS X. All of this with KDE.
Now it's time for all of the Linux and OSS movement to embrace these ideas, for they are the future.
If this sumbitch doesn't do tarball installs, then I want no part of it. Believe it or not, some of us actually like having full control over our systems. (http://tongue.gif) (http://tongue.gif) (http://tongue.gif)
__________________________________
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Live Free or Die: Linux
If software can be free, why can't dolphins?
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quote:
Originally posted by root@localhost / BOB:
let me sum up all the Linux help forums,
wait for it... wait for it.
"RTFM n00b!"
there. that is the only "Tech Support" offered by the helpful linux community.
ammendum, reading documentation is the first mistake of application design. the user interface NEEDS to be intuitive, consistent and logical
The application should "just work" without having to dig through man-pages
[ March 10, 2004: Message edited by: root@localhost / BOB ]
Why do you waste your time here if you're obviously too stupid to ask for help on accredited places where people are known to help you? There's never been a case in which "RTFM" has been the only answer on Linuxforums or CTH.
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Personally, I'd like Linux distrobutions to stay away from a rehaul of turning Linux into being Windows - or making everything as easy as Windows and needing virtually no command line stuff. KDE is such a resource hog anyway, crashes too much too. Some of us like something fast, with minimal bloat, and complete control. As long as there's Slack and Fluxbox...
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the issues are real. deal with them now before they forever kill Linux's chances on the desktop.
Who has what to lose in this? We don't need a revolution taking place to replace Windows with Linux for the desktop - MS is taking care of that for us anyway. Windows users are being bombarded with worries of security and data loss from viruses. Each new hole found is the worst one ever -- this "security through obscurity" will be their downfall. Just keep supporting RedHat and all the other 'make things easier' distros, they'll get there.
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Originally posted by jimmyjames.sytes.net:
Because you don't have to know about /dev/hda or swap partitions. You don't have to know about X11 config files or about configuring CUPS or about networks.
Nor do you need to know about that in Linux when you set it up. The above printed is your imagination!
A default installation IS VERY simple and IS easier compared to windows which needs to know the exact hardware your running. Needs all the driver software (nothing built in and if you don't have driver software you are screwed!) and cannot locate and configure things like the net automaticaly because you have to know the settings of the network!
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You don't need to know about compiliing stuff, or about how to use apt-get.
Thats correct, under linux you don't need to know that stuff but under windows you have to know things like how dll files work as well as the system registry!
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And most of all...
PEOPLE WILL HELP YOU IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM! They won't piss at you and yell 'RTFM, YOU FUCKING NEWB!"
Agree. People in the linux commuinty WILL help as well as there is a lot of information already from the internet, books and if you use a major distro like Red Hat or SuSE there is even a toll free number to call and no they won't leave you hanging for 40min while they shove a very large bill up your ass!
Truth.[/QUOTE]
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quote:
Originally posted by restin256:
Why do you waste your time here if you're obviously too stupid to ask for help on accredited places where people are known to help you? There's never been a case in which "RTFM" has been the only answer on Linuxforums or CTH.
This is where you took it too far. You personally insulted me instead of stating your case in this debate. Good Day.
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You lose, Restin.
We've been perfectly nice during all this. Never once struck first with a flame. Only you're flaming here.
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Hand writing is on the wall.
MS XP running on Red Hat Kernal
New Apple/MAC OS running on Red Hat Kernal
If they are both going to Linux why not you.
If you don't you'll be left behind.
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OldManRiver: MS XP running on Red Hat Kernal
New Apple/MAC OS running on Red Hat Kernal
Erm... :confused:
I guess XPde (http://www.xpde.com/) looks very much like Windows (screenshot (http://www.xpde.com/shots/explorer.png)), but I didn't know Windows runs on the Red Hat "Kernal".
By "Kernal", do you mean the customly compiled Linux kernel for Red Hat, or the core of Red Hat?
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quote:
Originally posted by OldManRiver:
Hand writing is on the wall.
MS XP running on Red Hat Kernal
New Apple/MAC OS running on Red Hat Kernal
If they are both going to Linux why not you.
If you don't you'll be left behind.
What... The... Hell...?
what is a kernal, is it anything like a kernel?
Linux is an OS kernel, it does NOT interact with the user whatsoever.
XP/2003 Server have a POSIX LAYER for interactions. not the "Red Hat Kernal"
and Mac OSX has a BSD layer from its NeXT heritage, running on Mach. but that is all under the hood.
NOTHING to do with user interaction.
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Originally posted by jimmyjames.sytes.net:
You lose, Restin.
We've been perfectly nice during all this. Never once struck first with a flame. Only you're flaming here.
I believe that people should have a certain degree of intelligence before trying to do something. You need a drivers liscense before you can buy a car, you should know how to use a computer to the very least degree before trying to. The fact is, you aren't told to RTFM if you ask for help in the right place. I may have lost, but no argument can be made that I'm simply right.
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Originally posted by restin256:
I believe that people should have a certain degree of intelligence before trying to do something. You need a drivers liscense before you can buy a car, you should know how to use a computer to the very least degree before trying to. The fact is, you aren't told to RTFM if you ask for help in the right place. I may have lost, but no argument can be made that I'm simply right.
Yes, but that does not mean the software should make users jump through unnecessary hoops just to get something done. should all cars have to require a user to pump the brakes. Hell no, we passed that. Linux is stuck between it's UGLY past (UNIX) and the promising future ahead of it. If it stays UNIX people will NOT want to use it.
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Originally posted by OldManRiver:
Hand writing is on the wall.
MS XP running on Red Hat Kernal
New Apple/MAC OS running on Red Hat Kernal
If they are both going to Linux why not you.
If you don't you'll be left behind.
You sir, are a fucking moron.
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Originally posted by [root@localhost /]#:
Linux is stuck between it's UGLY past (UNIX) and the promising future ahead of it. If it stays UNIX people will NOT want to use it.
I don't know what you guys are talking about...what's wrong with Unix?
If you mean the file structure, with /usr, /home, /lib, and whatever - what's so bad about it? I think it's very logical and simple. Plus, /usr and /home are the only ones you normally have to deal with.
Other than this, I don't know what's so wrong about the Unix heritage. Recent Linux distros are NOT hard to use in any respect, unless of course it supposed to be (like Slackware).
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quote:
Originally posted by WMD:
Recent Linux distros are NOT hard to use in any respect, unless of course it supposed to be (like Slackware).
Slackware isn't supposed to be hard. PatV didn't sit down and say "gosh, how could I make a Linux distro that's really hard to use?" It was probably more along the lines of "I'm a geek, what would I like to see in a Linux?" It wasn't really designed to be a noob distro, and it wasn't designed to be archaic. It was designed to be completely and totally configurable, down to the last semicolon. If you want the configuration done for you by wizards, don't use Slackware.
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I use computers for about 15 years. I've been a Dos programmer (ASM, TurboPascal, C++). I couldn't switch to that Visual crap for Windows after DOS was replaced and decided to be a webdeveloper. And this is what I'm doing for the past 5 years. I'm an experienced PHP programmer and a pretty good designer (or at least I like to think that way).
A friend of mine installed Slackware on my server. One day I decided to install QMail. Well, I spent one whole day reading tutorials and searching the web. Late in the night I decided to ask my friend to install it for me.
I'm not complaining about the Linux community, or the feedback, or the documentation - it's far better than that Windows', but I think the problem is the OS itself rather than the community. Probably if I spent another day or so I might have installed it, but would have been a f**king waste of time. It's more convenient to pay someone to do it (and is certainly better for your health).
So, why should I lose a few month of my life to learn an OS, that can't do for me half the things Windows can? No games, no serious applications other than server management (I mean no photoshop, corel, flash and the list can go on).
I think that for now at least 90% of the users have nothing to do with Linux and should stick to Windows and it's lovely BSOD (I know it sux, but this is the reality).
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I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it takes a certain kind of person to get their jollies from the Linux experience. There's a bit of a learning curve at the start, and you WILL experience frustration and start whining in forums, it is inevitable. But then it gets better. You kinda have to really love computers and be willing to sit and tinker with shit for maybe months to get everything going so you can begin to get things done efficiently.
The Linux experience is not for everyone, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.
If you want to be able to purchase a new computer, install a few hit programs, and start working, then maybe Windows is for you. You'll just have to suck it up and take MS bullshit like a man, because you have chosen to sacrifice quality for immediacy. That's the tradeoff.
If you want to spend a little time messing around and getting to know how hardware and software really works and then use that newfound knowledge to do some really cool stuff, all while having basic programs to take care of your basic daily needs, then you can roll Linux style.
Maybe Linux is a hobbyists OS, but that doesn't bother me at all. If that possibility bothers you, then fuck off and leave us alone.
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pandronic: So, why should I lose a few month of my life to learn an OS, that can't do for me half the things Windows can? No games, no serious applications other than server management (I mean no photoshop, corel, flash and the list can go on).
Hahaha :D
Silly you, you can run Photoshop in Wine or CrossOfiice, who needs Corel, and Macromedia is making their MX line available for Linux in a few months (http://tongue.gif)
And games... well, some companies decided to make their games native for Linux, putting the Linux version on the same disk as the Windows version, example: Unreal Tournament 2004 (http://www.unrealtournament.com/) (look at the bottom of the page, or download the Linux demo :rolleyes (http://smile.gif) .
I hope other game companies follow this trend. And ATi too, because compared to nVidia's Linux drivers, theirs suck.
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Originally posted by [root@localhost /]#:
Yes, but that does not mean the software should make users jump through unnecessary hoops just to get something done.
Change your username, it's decieving. Linux doesn't require you to jump through as many hoops as Windows. With Linux you don't need as heavy antivirus than you do with windows, if any at all.
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Originally posted by Refalm:
Hahaha :D
Silly you, you can run Photoshop in Wine or CrossOfiice, who needs Corel, and Macromedia is making their MX line available for Linux in a few months (http://tongue.gif)
And games... well, some companies decided to make their games native for Linux, putting the Linux version on the same disk as the Windows version, example: Unreal Tournament 2004 (http://www.unrealtournament.com/) (look at the bottom of the page, or download the Linux demo :rolleyes (http://smile.gif) .
I hope other game companies follow this trend. And ATi too, because compared to nVidia's Linux drivers, theirs suck.
We'll just have to wait and see and let's hope that Linux will get more usable.
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Originally posted by worker201:
... then fuck off and leave us alone.
Hey, man what kind of conversation do you prefer? Maybe something like:
- Yeah, Linux rulz dude!
- Right on dude, Linux kicks ass!!! And you know what?
- What?
- Fuck Windows!!!
- Yeah, dude!
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We'll just have to wait and see and let's hope that Linux will get more usable.
http://calix.calyptos.com (http://calix.calyptos.com)
That should do it. We're using that distro for the core of CthulOS.
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Originally posted by pandronic:
Hey, man what kind of conversation do you prefer? Maybe something like:
- Yeah, Linux rulz dude!
- Right on dude, Linux kicks ass!!! And you know what?
- What?
- Fuck Windows!!!
- Yeah, dude!
Actually, what I am trying to say is:
Them - Hey, I don't like Linux, it sucks.
Me - Then don't use it.
If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out!
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Originally posted by jimmyjames.sytes.net:
http://calix.calyptos.com (http://calix.calyptos.com)
That should do it. We're using that distro for the core of CthulOS.
I took a look and it sounds promising.
When do you think there will be a final version?
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Originally posted by worker201:
Actually, what I am trying to say is:
Them - Hey, I don't like Linux, it sucks.
Me - Then don't use it.
That's a nicer way of saying it. But I think you are too eager to give up potential Linux users.
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It's not a race to see who can convert the most users. From what I've seen, people are very particular about what they like and don't like when it comes to computers. Windows might be the best choice for some people. There's a tradeoff they have to make between "windowsishness" and quality. I believe that eventually, everyone will realize, as I have, that Windows is not really a viable solution, and come over on their own.
Our job is to remind people why Windows is not the best solution, and then help them when they decide to come in. Kinda like AA. We man the phones at 3am, waiting for that inevitable phone call. The call will come, it's just a question of when.
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Originally posted by jimmyjames.sytes.net:
Because you don't have to know about /dev/hda or swap partitions. You don't have to know about X11 config files or about configuring CUPS or about networks.
You don't need to know about compiliing stuff, or about how to use apt-get.
And most of all...
PEOPLE WILL HELP YOU IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM! They won't piss at you and yell 'RTFM, YOU FUCKING NEWB!"
Truth.
For retard AOL-ers like you. When will you realize that Linux is a geek O/S? And they have guides on the Internet and your local bookstore, so "'RTFM, YOU FUCKING NEWB!"
Truth.
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Good day, young1024
Welcome to the forums. Now it's time for you to learn your place.
Your place is not here. We don't want your kind if you're going to be like that.
Seeing as you're apparently not a "stupid AOLler", I suppose you easily found the link to GenSTEP (http://cthulos.sourceforge.net)? I figure that you suddenly realized that you're a complete and utter fucktard when you noticed that you were looking at the motherfucking sf.net project site for my Linux distro, powered by the excellent Komodo (http://calix.calyptos.com). its purpose is to solve many of these problems by bringing a next-generation approach to Linux.
The sad truth is, installation and configuration can often times require some degree of fiddling with the UNIXy parts. Software installation can as well. Things are much better. But not as nice as they could be.
Documentation is also a problem even now. GenSTEP aims to solve those problems, and it will.
Now, you are cordially invited to piss off.
[ March 19, 2004: Message edited by: jimmyjames.sytes.net ]
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See, he's said nothing of use once again.
You really don't have to know about X11 or /etc/whatever to instal Linux. I installed it numerous times before I knew what X11 was.
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Did somebody say something?
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You make yourself out as an AOLer apparantly, as you believe someone must know the kernel by heart in order to install the OS.
You need to know how to use apt-get, just as with windoze you need to know how to use system updater.
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PEOPLE WILL HELP YOU IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM! They won't piss at you and yell 'RTFM, YOU FUCKING NEWB!"
There's the only truthful point in your post, if it's not sarcasm. As someone once said, if you go to linuxquestions.org or linuxiso.org you wouldn't get that for asking help. It's FUDers like you who try to make it seem as though it's not ready, though I've been perfectly capable of using it even before I learnned any programming language.
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Come on, play nice children. Jimmy, your post wasn't vey nice nor was it helpful to anyone.
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Anyone who says a modern Linux distro is hard to install doesn't have a fucking clue what they are on about. I use SuSE 9, and it's so easy to install - It was just as easy as installing OS X or Windows 2000. My own mother could manage to install it.
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Ok, so maybe this thread was started when linux really WAS a pain in the arse to install. Things have moved on, and distributions of linux such as Mandrake have moved things on in the right direction!
Some people here have obviously never had to install a networked NT, Win2k or XP professional (which is basically what you're getting with Linux) in which case I'd suggest that you stay with ME or 98 and have it easy. All of the above require at least some basic configuration knowledge (far more than the initial poster I'd suggest?), so you wouldn't stand a chance at setting up any of them correctly if you didn't know what you were doing !!??. Yes, it really does make sense to RTFM for ANY system!
Even on a win system it makes sense to have several partitions if only to save data when (not if) the system crashes (ALL systems crash, linux included), but if you really feel safe with your SINGLE! 80GB partition then go ahead, you obviously are not interested in finding out what the advantages of multiple partitions would be?
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Originally posted by MadShad:
Ok, so maybe this thread was started when linux really WAS a pain in the arse to install.
Nope. (http://tongue.gif) A few weeks back. Jimmy James (being a Mac lover) is a little slow on Linux. ;)
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No, actually, I did it to see what the reaction is to the claim.
I know quite a few people who think that way, and I wondered how the Linux community felt about it.
I'm doing my part to help alleviate the problem though :D
Click the image in my sig!
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Playind the Devil's Advocate again?
Err.. slashdot Again.
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You could say so :-D
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I took a look and it sounds promising.
When do you think there will be a final version?
GenSTEP Developer Preview 1 (Black) should be out by the end of May.
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I know quite a few people who think that way, and I wondered how the Linux community felt about it.
The claim is bullshit. That's all you need to know. ;)
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This guy that started this obviously did not do any research what-so-ever. You don't need to know about X11-config. Linux starts right up.
No one usually makes fun of you unless you are trying to use Slackware and are a "newbie." I mean don't you think that's just stupid? What newbie would use Linux. The reason I say that no one will laugh at you is because everyone is here just to get more people to use it. I mean every linux user I have ever met loves it and just wants others to use it. I mean come on the reason we all even think about switching is because of the numerous problems with Windows. I think that you get a certain amount of respect for finally figuring out you need to switch. Taking the next step and finding out how to do this... everyone will help. If anyone says anything about "blah blah blah you're stupid you're a newbie." You always start your post off with "I'M SICK OF WINDOWS PLEASE HELP!" If they don't help you then they are pricks...
I have had no troubles installing linux... even the first time... it was like just clicking. That's it. Windows doesn't let you have as much control... Partitioning in the install isn't that hard. Especially because most installers can do it for you... So quit your bitching no one said it was easier. Sometimes you gotta work for change. Is there something wrong about that?