Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Linux and UNIX => Topic started by: Sleeping Dog on 18 June 2002, 13:08
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I want nothing more than using LINUX as my desktop "solution", but there just isn't enough stuff. I mean, gee folks, I have to work in a world full of MAC geeks and PC Goobers that I need to share files with on a professional level. "This ain't playin' around, this ain't no dress rehearsal, this is the big time." (Waylon Jennings, 1979) There just is not enough software that is available to us startup wanna'bes that runs under Linux on the DESKTOP yet to make the OS viable and friendly. Hey Developers, where the Hell are you?
OK folks....here is some real world stuff I deal with day to day, personally and professionally. (Internet aside).
I design machines and buildings with AutoCAD, I do photos for my 80 year old Mommy with PhotoShop. I FTP large files back and forth, and I am a freakin' musician who wants to take advantage of the latest in audio software. I don't want to have to get another PHD in OS....I just want software that does what I want to do without paying Redmond or the cider people a premium.
Is there Hope?
Signed......Lost in the Ozone again.
Sleeping Dog
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use a mac.
sorry, but the more customisable the OS, the more you'll need to know about it. I am not sure about the CAD stuff, but the audio stuff will need a lot of configuring (from what i see) to get it to work. Either that or it's a case of getting WineX and running win32 programs (third party non-m$ ones) using it.
As for photos and networking, all that stuff is already on yr machine, if you installed linux and a lot of programs. Did you try GIMP? it's as good as photoshop, totally free, and it's open source too.
Also, you'll notice that linux comes with literally hundreds of programs preinstalled. I think your claim of not enough stuff is a bit silly, considering you get about five programs with windows, all of which are useless, spyware or both.
Still, a lot of developers developers developers developers have still got their heads down the toilet when it comes to releasing for linux...
Also, sleeping dog, try not to post a topic more than once, hmm? i had to delete a useless topic of yours because it's only function was to tell people to read this topic. That wastes my time as well as other people's. If people want to read this, they will. Don't piss them off in the meantime, thanks.
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Sorry about the "SO WHERE'S MY FLYING CAR?" posting. It was a joke....maybe took five seconds of precious time to read. Good grief, lighten up a bit. Have some fun. Levity can be good for the soul.
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whatever. I have a perfectly good sense of humour, and there's no need for you to go insulting me just to inflate your own ego. I'm not trying to start a flame war but we have a forum to keep clean and if everybody started two topics when one would do, we'd be neck deep in shit.
There's a reason for moderators you know. Nothing personal, unless you make it personal.
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on the note of Calum, i was on your site and tried to download your two mp3s and it said i wasn't allowed???
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yup, sorry, thanks for bringing it to my attention. The problem is that i am breaching their terms and conditions by linking to those mp3s, so i knew it would only be a matter of time... maybe i can get around it somehow. The best way would be to find somebody who could host my site for me... :( my downloads page has been updated, so now there's no real point to my site even existing...
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Angelfire is stil allowing people to dl MP3s from The Abyss (http://www.abysmal-plane.cjb.net)
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sabbath! heavy metal rocks! (heh heh) (uh huh huh!)
well my site is back up as far as i can see, so go for it...
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are you allowed to host Vorbis files? Maybe you should convert all your songs to Ogg Vorbis.
.....what is the name of the ogg encoder in Linux (command-line)? I installed everything when I installed RH7.2 so I should have it somewhere.
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n/m... its oggenc (duh)
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I'm not out to flame, insult or berate anyone. Never was my intention, nor will it ever be. My lament is still the same. NOT ENUF STUFF. However, I have been doing some additional investigation on the subject of Linux analogue software. The common element that I have found in following the threads left by some of the developers is that fast and cost efficient tools for doing things like porting Pro-E or AutoCad to the Linux platform are still in their infancy. Much of the lack of software seems due to cost and time restrictions as well. It would seem that there are pure code ways of duplicating the GUI's and functionality of a lot of professionally popular software, but the time required due to limited tools and the development costs thereto associated are still prohibitive.
There do seem to be some rays of hope, however. Rumor has it that Pro-E is supposed to release a Linux version in late fall. Regretably, just the 5 day intro class to Pro-E carries a 15 Thousand dollar price tag for base versions that already exist. (That does not include the software.)
My lady is a Professional Graphic Designer. She has several years of MAC specific graphics experience. MAC's are not nearly as tempermental as Windows machines, but they are not without their own unique problems and issues, many of which are equally annoying. Recently she looked at and priced the updates of her software to run on OS Ten. In a nutshell, there is little additional functionality and a lot of additional cost. There are also some major version file incompatabilities between applications. (....and trust me, lately MAC support for Quark and Illustrator has left a lot to be desired.)
"Get a MAC" is not an answer to the issue that I initially addressed. Those of us who have several thousands of dollars invested in hardware and software that we use on a daily basis to put bread on the table for our families, do not always have the financial ability to trash our present tools and throw money at something else on a whim.
We look for stability, affordability and support.
Hopefully, these things will come of age sooner rather than later in a Linux format for us folks who make our livings using computers as tools. Until then, I guess we are just stuck with the MAC's and Windows machines/software that are presently available.
Sleeping Dog
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all of what you say is true however like most people, you say you want stability, affordability and support.
I put it to you that you do not get stability with windows. You do not get support with windows (at least not from Microsoft, who produce it) and arguably, you do not get affordability with windows either.
Linux already has windows beat on the fronts of affordability and stability, and windows, frankly, is not going to catch up on those two fronts. Support, can be bought for the GNU/Linux system, from any major linux vendor, however i think the support you mean, is purely porting and compiling applications from one platform to the other.
This, in my opinion, has been something the software developers have been incredibly lax on for years. As far as i can see, they wrote it, now take some time to port it, instead of bringing out a newer, totally indistinguishable from the last one, version for the same old platforms yet again.
I suspect it has more to do with marketing than actual time and effort in a lot of cases.
All people can do is use whatever alternatives there are, until somebody realises there's a market there to cash in on, and authorises the good stuff to be ported. If people do not use the alternatives, then no porting will ever get done, because there, obviously, will not be a market to direct it towards.
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One of the threads that I referred to is a discussion between Vladimir Malukh ([email protected]) and Serg Shikov ([email protected]) about this specific issue. http://www.cad.dp.ua/stats/spor-e.html (http://www.cad.dp.ua/stats/spor-e.html)
Although it is primarily CAD related, the main points of their discussion can be applied to the development of professional Linux based software in general.
Linux presently is like having a great stack of lumber waiting to be used. However, without the right "hammer and fasteners", the house won't get built in a timely fashion.
Linux IS ready for the desktop, but the desktop is not quite ready yet for Linux.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
...This, in my opinion, has been something the software developers have been incredibly lax on for years...
yep, and that is what scares me...
i'm very new to all of this (linux) and am looking for a M$ alternitive. there is SO much research to do to find a viable alternitive it's pathetic. who supports the largest selection of popular PC hardware? what applications will replace, or work on linux? what functionality will i lose/gain? where is linux's position in the market and which direction is it heading and how fast?
i need answers to all those questions and many more as many other alternitive seekers also do before an intelligent choice can be made (btw, i'm not necessarily actually asking them here).
analizing the quoted statement above (no offence at all) provides very little comfort. i sort of see it as a general sum to many of my questions and i don't like the answer it provides, or my interpetition of the answer anyway. this is what i'm reading:
obviously the software developers are going to cater to whatever market provides a profitible return, right? if software developers have been "incredibly lax" on providing software, drivers, ports, etc., for linux "for years", that suggests to me 1) linux simply ain't too popular as a desktop platform, 2) it's probably not gaining in popularity very rapidly and 3) i'm not likely to find software with the functionality of much of the windowz counterparts, free or otherwise.
now, my take on this is not something that i necessarily believe is the case, rather it's my interpetation of the above quoted remark. please tell me i'm WRONG!
unlike Sleeping Dog, i'm far less restricted in my choices of OS's. i'm simply an end user on a stand-alone desktop that, currently, is not used for profit. still, i want graphics software with the full capability, or better, of Ulead PhotoImpact, text editing software with the full functionality, or better, of UltraEdit, WYSIWYG editing functionality of Front Page (M$ office in general), communication software such as Trillian and file sharing software such as WinMX.
now i know damn well that i may not be able to have my cake and eat it too, but just how close can i get given the current state of affairs?
i'm the type of person who will GLADLY depart from the mainstream and head off in my own direction, yet i fear i may be hampered if i choose linux as that direction. please pat me on my little head and tell me everything's gonna be ok :rolleyes:
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The nice thing about it is you can try it out and see if you can resolve all of your issues, for free. In fact, you can try it out *forever* and not feel guilty about it. There are a couple of office suites that are good. OpenOffice, http://www.openoffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org) is one of the best. "Evolution" is nearly identical to Microsoft Outlook (not Outlook Express) but without the little virus problem. I believe there is a solution for all of your other concerns as well.
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well for normal stuff, text editing, office, a lot of multimedia playback/ripping, linux is at least as good as windows due to having equal or superior programs and a more stable platform for them to run on. This even extends to photo editing and a variety of other stuff. The best WYSIWYG html editor for linux is in fact mozilla composer, which comes free with an installation of mozilla on any platform. I recommend cleaning up your html by hand afterwards in a nonWYSIWYG editor like bluefish.
Anyway, my comment above only really applies to high end apps. I personally have not found any good replacements for Sound Forge, ACID or Rebirth. That's because i want to do intense level sound editing. There exist some programs that may fill the gap but they are mainly in their development stages, won't compile for me (not so knowledgeable yet!) or do not feature a lot of features. This is no doubt the case in many specialist areas. Things like GIMP fill in the gaps a bit, but the DOS/win crowd have had a lot of years of shunting stuff onto the public and it gives them a huge headstart.
Again, i say this only really applies to the specialist stuff, since the open source/linux developers have really got their socks up, and if people do continue to support the platform(s) then it can only snowball even faster!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
One of the threads that I referred to is a discussion between Vladimir Malukh ([email protected]) and Serg Shikov ([email protected]) about this specific issue. http://www.cad.dp.ua/stats/spor-e.html (http://www.cad.dp.ua/stats/spor-e.html)
Although it is primarily CAD related, the main points of their discussion can be applied to the development of professional Linux based software in general.
Linux presently is like having a great stack of lumber waiting to be used. However, without the right "hammer and fasteners", the house won't get built in a timely fashion.
Linux IS ready for the desktop, but the desktop is not quite ready yet for Linux.
You seem to be primarily concerned with CAD. I would suggest you check out LinuxCAD. It seems to be a clone of AutoCAD for Linux. The last time I looked, a license was $100.00 (US). There is an evaluation program that's free.
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I do appreciate your input about LinuxCAD (I appreciate everyone's input).
LinuxCAD on a developmental level is about where AutoCAD was nearly 10 years ago in terms of its 3D capabilities. The package has not yet incorporated such things as 3D rendering or automated CNC tool pass utilities. It does, however, seem like a viable and affordable option for someone needing only the basics of CAD functionality.
One little chuckle that I did get from their website was this last line of the "Free Demo" order form.
LinuxCAD Intel PCs Free Demo Version - $35.00
Best to all of you.
Sleeping Dog
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There are a lot of programs that are equivalent of windoze ones.
Text/Hex:
Kate - (lacking global replace which should be in the next v., otherwise TextPad on linux)
jEdit - (excellent, platform independent - runs under java)
Nedit - ELF based, ugly, but has all you need from a text editor, has global replace)
KHexEdit - as it implies
HTML/XML/scripting:
BlueFish
Quanta Plus
(both can be used as text editors as well, BlueFish has global replace).
mozilla - HTML wysiwyg
CD rip/burn:
Grip - a ripper
XCDRoast - burn
(there is a DVD ripper and burn software, did not try yet)
Accounting:
Appgen - (quicken like)
GnuCash (MS money like)
Office:
OpenOffice
StarOffice
Koffice
Compression:
Ark
Gnozip
Graphics:
Bitmap - GIMP
Vector - OpenOffice, Kontour
Capture - Screen Capture
Morphing - Xmorph
3d - Blender, and some good ones coming, just growing out of their development alphas.
Numerous viewer and editing utilities.
DTP:
Scribus
CAD 2d:
Qcad
and so on.
Probably within a year or two, there will be either native linux replacements for anything you can think of. or linux ports available.
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let me add to the HTML:
quote:
Amaya
Amaya is the W3C's HTML browser and simple editor. [unix - solaris, linux RPM, source, win95, nt]
August
Here is an HTML text editor for Unix and Linux. It's in a stable beta release and is released under the Gnu Public License. [unix, linux] (requires Tcl/Tk)
Bluefish
This is a nice looking HTML editor, released under the Gnu Public License, but he requests that you send him a postcard as well. Lots of features for a beta release. [unix - freeBSD, Linux, Solaris, others]
Coffee Cup HTML Editor
Coffee Cup is a very popular WYSIWYG HTML editor, and now it's available for Linux. [linux]
Dozer
Dozer (Bulldozer) is a WYSIWYG HTML editor for X-Windows. [linux, unix]
Emacs Package - hm--html-menus
This package allows you to edit HTML with emacs with ease. [unix]
HomePage Builder V4 for Linux (beta)
A WYSIWYG editor that offers DHTML, CSS, and previewing in multiple browsers. A great image processor. Create your animations and image maps directly in your HTML editor.
HoTMetaL Pro
HoTMetaL Pro includes site management tools and graphical editors as well as HTML validation, global search and replace across a Web site. [win95, winnt, (mac, unix - version 3.0)]
A Simple HTML Editor
A simple full function WYSIWYG editor for XWindows. [unix - sunOS]
Vi the Text Editor
Creating HTML on a Unix machine is simple if you use vi. Links compiled by your HTML Guide.
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Thanks Quirk, RSD....I appreciate all of the info regarding app's that I can get.
Again, my buggaboo at present regards the lack of "Professional Level" software that runs under Linux for high end use.
The print profession, almost categorically, wants MAC files generated from a MAC. After many years (and Adobe fixing a lot of bugs) some of them are finally able to work efficiently with PC generated high-res print-ready graphics. Quark is another issue altogether, but having been an early entry into the "professional" print arena, it is still almost a requirement despite its translation, import/export and file issues.
Engineering/Architectural design software is dominated by Autocad and Microstation with a few other major players like Catia, Pro-E, etc. standing in the wings. The costs are high, but not necessarily prohibitive for the MAC and PC versions of the first two. However, after many years, they have a fixed place regarding 3-D design capabilities, file sharing and compatability with third party CNC and modeling packages that still does not exist in a Linux desktop application.
As noted earlier, Linux versions of the "high end stuff" have not yet been ported by Autodesk, Adobe, etc. for several reasons (mostly market economics). That is what I am whining so much about. Having a Linux platform and no professional software to run on it is like having a nitro-powered race car in a world that only sells regular gasoline.
Have a great day...
Sleeping Dog