Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Linux and UNIX => Topic started by: hm_murdock on 17 July 2004, 13:16
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Sat, July 17, 2004
Will Lahti, lead developer of Komodo and GenSTEP put the stamp of approval on Komodo Core AP1 build 19. Build 19 is the first milestone. Within days, Komodo will be available to try, and soon after, the OS that you've all been waiting for... GenSTEP will first see the light of day as GenSTEP Alpha One.
Every journey begins with a single step, my friends. We've done it. After being told for a year that the ideas were too far-fetched, too much... too different... we did it. I'd like to thank everybody that's supported us so far, and ask that you stay behind us. The best is yet to come, friends... I promise.
One small STEP is one giant leap.
GenSTEP from Komodoware. Welcome to the dawn of a new Generation.
PS We're still looking for help. If anybody wants to actually do something and join in the revolution, you're invited to do so. I hear a lot of tall talk around here about how much you all want to beat MS and kill Windows. This is your chance. Help us... and make the dream come true.
http://komodolinux.org (http://komodolinux.org)
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The beginnings of GenSTEP: GNUstep on Komodo!
http://komodolinux.org/screenshots/gnustep-murdock.png (http://komodolinux.org/screenshots/gnustep-murdock.png)
Viewing /
http://komodolinux.org/screenshots/desktop-konqi1.png (http://komodolinux.org/screenshots/desktop-konqi1.png)
Those are not symlinks to hidden folders. Those are real folders. /usr /bin, and all the others are gone.
The /Software folder
http://komodolinux.org/screenshots/desktop-software.png (http://komodolinux.org/screenshots/desktop-software.png)
Each icon is a bundle. Much like bundles from OPENSTEP and Mac OS X, they are complete folder trees that are abstracted into single icons
Freedesktop.org on Komodo
http://komodolinux.org/screenshots/trans-desktop.png (http://komodolinux.org/screenshots/trans-desktop.png)
Metisse on Komodo
http://www.komodolinux.org/screenshots/metisse1.png (http://www.komodolinux.org/screenshots/metisse1.png)
http://www.komodolinux.org/screenshots/metisse2.png (http://www.komodolinux.org/screenshots/metisse2.png)
We will deliver today what Longhorn promises for 2006. We will have a fully-integrated Metisse engine in Komodo and GenSTEP. No bothering with metisse running in a window... the entire display will be managed by it. Full 3D desktop.
We are the next generation.
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Pimp. Here's your cane, pimp. :D
(http://houseofcanes.com/catalog/images/1004combi.gif)
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That rox!!!
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That's right AmericanBastard... it does indeed rock.
Everybody at MES is interested in this and will look at this thread.
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I will offer support in anyway possible. I'm not that educated or well-funded, but will readily support anyone opposing microsoft. Let me know how I can help.
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Is this GenSTEP things going to include X (I hope X.org, because it rox), or is it going to be completely *STEP interface based?
If it does, will it be compatible with X programs?
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X.org is the X11 server, but apps will run though a dummy X server which will render with metisse. all applications will therefore use Metisse and the entire desktop will receive the benefits of it. X.org will be the main X server, though.
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You know, Jimmy, I remember only months ago (actually, close to when I registered) you were ranting about "the fact" that X11 sucked. Have you changed your opinion, and if so, why?
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xfree86 sucks. x.org does not. Right?
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You know, Jimmy, I remember only months ago (actually, close to when I registered) you were ranting about "the fact" that X11 sucked. Have you changed your opinion, and if so, why?
because nearly all of my issues with it have been addressed! X.org is a great improvement over xfree86, and the work done on Metisse and Looking Glass brings us a next-generation display layer that keeps X11 compatibility.
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Isn't the current X.Org just a fork of XFree86 4.4? AFAIK they didn't change all that much. The only change I know of was fixing a bug in the nv driver so that the FX5700 worked. :D
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WMD: Isn't the current X.Org just a fork of XFree86 4.4? AFAIK they didn't change all that much. The only change I know of was fixing a bug in the nv driver so that the FX5700 worked. :D
X.org is better. It doesn't contain any bugs, and xorg.conf is far superiour to XFree86 one (I forgot the name, because of my trauma with it). And, because it doesn't conflict with GPL, distributions can bring it out any time they want. Everyone should switch to it, and leave XFree86 to die.
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This looks cool.
Almost too cool.
I hope it's not too bloated, what are the minimum hardware requirements?
[ July 18, 2004: Message edited by: Aloone ]
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we're looking at base install being somewhere around 300-400MB I think
other reqs, I think you'll be able to use any 3D accelerator card with Metisse. Will plans on making it "smart", so that on lesser hardware, it will automatically scale back. on the lowest-end stuff, I think we'll just use X.org without metisse.
we plan on adding some basic skinning to GNUstep so that we can have a slightly updated look. nothing as drastic as the difference between OPENSTEP and Aqua, though
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correction on that last post... around 800MB for the OS install
update: GenSTEP Alpha.One in about ten days.
Here's what's included
Komodo Core AP1 (build 19)
X.org
Current GNUstep
Window Maker
GWorkspace
Not an awful lot, but we'll be improving things quickly after that. Once we get Alpha.One out, then we'll see Komodo Core AP2, which will include an improved hardware detection system, many of the Komodo services, and other high-level Komodo components. When it's done, then GenSTEP Alpha.Two is released and work continues on Komodo Core. I don't know how much work Will wants to complete before we reach the point where Komodo is ready to be wrapped up, but when that's nearing completion, we will release GenSTEP Developer Preview One: Black.
Some of the Komodo services include...
- GraphicsService
Handles fast-user-switching and 3d window manipulation/alpha translucency. Yup that's right, via this baby and Metisse, we have a graphics system definitely rivaling Windows and almost rivaling OS X. The fast-user-switching is a side effect of using Metisse. See Metisse uses a kind of "dummy server" called Xwnc. Apps connect to this Xwnc and "Ametista" which is Metisse's OpenGL window renderer takes the window pixmaps and draws them in the main X server (X.org). If you terminate Ametista, Xwnc still runs. Therefore, we can keep these dummy Xwncs running for each user we want logged in. The allocation of Xwnc's is handled by GraphicsService.
- MsgService
Provides a mail-like IPC service. Applications register identities to utilize the service. To request an identity's "mail", you must supply the proper password that the app gave at registration too. I only put security in places I knew it would be hard to implement at the app level. For instance you can probably spoof messages and that's the fun of it. No application should use this for mission-critical communication anyway right now. The spoofing part I'm sure will spawn little apps that manipulate other apps which is a plus for Komodo.
- DialogService
This is a simple one. It shows messages on the screen.
- LogService
Reports activity to the system/user logs.
- ErrorService
ErrorService uses DialogService and LogService to report errors. It also acts a Solution repository. Solutions are small data structures that solve a problem causing an exception in a Marble application. All exceptions in Marble applications are solvable. ErrorService can query these solutions from online sources. Ad-hoc bugfixing!
- MountService
Handles disk/image mounting very simply. You just give it the source device/file and the destination directory and it does it for you.
- mDnsService
This one is in progress still. It provides our own Rendezvous service which we call Vergos for the owner of the Rendezvous restaurant in Memphis.
- HardwareService
This one is also in progress. Once I upgrade to a 2.6 kernel and get it to work I'll be able to expose HAL through this bad boy.
[ July 19, 2004: Message edited by: JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder ]
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800MB - That's acceptable I suppose.
How much RAM will you need?
Most people I know, who aren't computer wizz-kidz use their PC just for word-processing have just 64MB.
I hope it can be set-up an configured to run on a 5 year old machine.
Read the first paragraph: http://www.microsuck.com/content/whatsbad.shtml (http://www.microsuck.com/content/whatsbad.shtml)
How about hardware support and troubleshooting?
I assume that hardware support will be the same as any other Linux distribution.
But How about troubleshooting?
If I am testing out a new driver for my vidio card and it fucks up.
Will it do what XP does and revert back to the previous driver?
It could also do what older versions of windows do and boot into safe mode and use a generic VGA driver.
I hope it won't do what Windows 3.1 and Redhat Linux does, and you have to edit some shitty configuration file or restore it from a backup copy to get the GUI back.
I don't bitch about Linux just to piss you lot off!
I criticize Linux with the hope that someone will listen and will not only help me, but try to make Linux better too.
Now this would be cool:
Imagine a central server that all distributions of Linux can download drivers from.
No fuss.
No bother.
No need to search the Internet at all.
All you do is install your hardware, boot your machine and Linux will detect your new hardware and offer to connect to a certified server and download a driver bundle and configure it for you, if the driver is not available from this server, you will be linked you up to one that has the driver, if this fails it will say
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Oh and another good thing about XP is that the configuration is journalled.
If you install something or by your own stupidity you fuck the registry up, you can restore it to how it was, an hour ago, yesterday or even last week if you wish.
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Originally posted by Aloone:
I don't bitch about Linux just to piss you lot off!
Indeed, you probably do this cause you don't understand anything about it.
They've ripped you with your computer.
It's crap.
I've installed Linux on more than 100 computers and I never had to deal with that much hardware problems.
Blame your computer shop.
Ps: Just give it some time and read as much as possible. Try to understand Linux and not only the GUI.
;)
[ July 19, 2004: Message edited by: insomnia ]
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder:
- MsgService
Provides a mail-like IPC service. Applications register identities to utilize the service. To request an identity's "mail", you must supply the proper password that the app gave at registration too. I only put security in places I knew it would be hard to implement at the app level. For instance you can probably spoof messages and that's the fun of it. No application should use this for mission-critical communication anyway right now. The spoofing part I'm sure will spawn little apps that manipulate other apps which is a plus for Komodo.
Could I ask what the point of that is?
You seem to be reinventing several wheels
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by insomnia:
Indeed, you probably do this cause you don't understand anything about it.
I would like to learn a lot more about Linux, but I already know enough to know what I dislike.
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Originally posted by insomnia:
They've ripped you with your computer.
It's crap.
I've installed Linux on more than 100 computers and I never had to deal with that much hardware problems.
Blame your computer shop.
XP runs ok, not as well as I would like it to though, yesterday just as my brother was logging on XP completely froze, no BSOD, nothing, it just locked up, the mouse cursor wouldn't even move.
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Originally posted by insomnia:
Ps: Just give it some time and read as much as possible.
Yes I will.
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Originally posted by insomnia:
Try to understand Linux and not only the GUI. ;)
I know there is more to Linux than the GUI, most people don't use anthing else but the GUI. I (unlike most Windows users) know the DOS command line, it's not hard to use if you know all the commands and some Linux commands are similar to DOS.
The command line user interface should have long gone, GUIs are the future. A GUI doesn't need to be big a resource hog, it is possible to design a very good GUI that uses up way less than 1MB of memory.
The command line should just be there to fall back on in case the GUI fails. Text based operating systems are still good for file servers and batch data processing systems, but they are useless for any process that requires a lot of human intervention.
I know I have my concerns, but this Komodo and GenSTEP shit looks very promising, I like the easy customisation of system directories and software bundles.
(http://graemlins/thumbsup.gif) keep up the good work!
[ July 20, 2004: Message edited by: Aloone ]
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it is possible to design a very good GUI that uses up way less than 1MB of memory.
already been done. it's called twm.
why are you so obsessed with absurdly small things? are you trying to run Linux on a 386 or something?
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easy customisation of system directories and software bundles.
well... it's not necessarily customizable. the mark of any good system is a consistent user experience... there are no "options" for system folder names.
[ July 20, 2004: Message edited by: JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder ]
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already been done. it's called twm.
A Window manager is hardly a full GUI.
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why are you so obsessed with absurdly small things? are you trying to run Linux on a 386 or something?
No, I just think that modern operating systems guzzle resources. Most people don't upgrade every 2 years, and as time passes people will upgrade less often. A decent (non bloated OS) shouldn't be the main strain of system resources.
1MB was a bit extreem, but it should be useble on a 64MB system.
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well... it's not necessarily customizable. the mark of any good system is a consistent user experience... there are no "options" for system folder names.
I agree, lets get rid of that Linux system folder abomination.
I know I don't expect you read all of my rambleing.
How about the other issues I raised?
How about hardware and troubleshooting?
I hope you don't have to do any command line shit to set up the system, regardless of your hardware?
Lets colapse the command line, like MS ditched DOS.
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Lets colapse the command line, like MS ditched DOS.
Microsoft crippled the command line in windows to keep its users stupid. If technically adept people (particularly system administrators) realised how powerful the unix command line is, they wouldn't go back to windows.
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quote:
Originally posted by flap:
Microsoft crippled the command line in windows to keep its users stupid. If technically adept people (particularly system administrators) realised how powerful the unix command line is, they wouldn't go back to windows.
Yes, sorry, the command line does have it's place.
This is a main criticism I have with NT and Windows in general.
All versions before Win95 used the DOS kernel to allocate memory. Win95 provided DPMI which slowed things down a lot, they should have just rewritten DOS to be 32bit.
Also every new feature was always implemented in Windows and never in DOS, if the just added it to the DOS that Windows runs on, it would be a lot better. They used separate drivers for dos and windows, if dos was 32bit the same drivers could be used.
NT should also have a DOS like commandline without the need to load the GUI.
MS should have never ditched DOS completely, they should have just made it unnecessary for normal people to know it.
The same should happen in Linux!
The command line should be there just in case the GUI goes down, and for vary rare ocasions where it is more efficient to use the command line.
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Windows 95 did not use DPMI. it's Win32, not "32 bit DOS"
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The command line should be there just in case the GUI goes down, and for vary rare ocasions where it is more efficient to use the command line.
Most non-interactive tasks can be accomplished far more quickly and efficiently using the command line, if you know what you're doing.
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Originally posted by JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder:
Windows 95 did not use DPMI. it's Win32, not "32 bit DOS"
Win32 included DPMI and it worked on the same principle:
File access was all buffered back to DOS, and it included DPMI like memory allocation, you still needed HIMEM.SYS to load windows. You could run 32bit console programs like NASM for Windows, there was even a program that would stub a DPMI subsystem onto these so they can run under plain DOS.
Anyway you haven't answered any of my other questions Jimmy.
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Win32, dude. Not Win32s.
Even Windows for Workgroups used a native Windows protected mode for some things.
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A Window manager is hardly a full GUI.
Euhm... why?
You don't even need it to have full GUI.
X is all you need.
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No, I just think that modern operating systems guzzle resources. Most people don't upgrade every 2 years, and as time passes people will upgrade less often. A decent (non bloated OS) shouldn't be the main strain of system resources.
That's why a command line should be even more integrated in any GUI.
A GUI itself is bloat.
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but it should be useble on a 64MB system
It is.
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The same should happen in Linux!
The command line should be there just in case the GUI goes down, and for vary rare ocasions where it is more efficient to use the command line.
That same thing is what made Windows even worse.
If this would happen with Linux, I'd drop it and start using BSD.
What you seem to want is GUI build in the kernel.
That must be the worsed idea ever.
Do you really think any Linux user would like this.
[ July 20, 2004: Message edited by: insomnia ]
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Yes, sorry, the command line does have it's place.
This is a main criticism I have with NT and Windows in general.
I don't. I used the classic Mac OS for years and never needed a command line. It has none at all. Classic Mac OS can't boot without a video adaptor.
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All versions before Win95 used the DOS kernel to allocate memory. Win95 provided DPMI which slowed things down a lot, they should have just rewritten DOS to be 32bit.
No they shouldn't have. And Windows/386 did not use DOS for memory management.
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Also every new feature was always implemented in Windows and never in DOS, if the just added it to the DOS that Windows runs on, it would be a lot better. They used separate drivers for dos and windows, if dos was 32bit the same drivers could be used.
When Win95 was released, you didn't need DOS drivers unless you specifically intended to use DOS on its own. The DOS box in Windows would use Windows drivers for everything.
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NT should also have a DOS like commandline without the need to load the GUI.
Recovery console. Included with 2000, XP, and Server 2003.
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MS should have never ditched DOS completely, they should have just made it unnecessary for normal people to know it.
I fully disagree. DOS was a crutch. It was seriously holding the software back. Look at the difference in Windows Me and Windows 2000. They're very similar, save for Windows Me is built on the Win95 kernel, and 2000 runs on NT.
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The same should happen in Linux!
The command line should be there just in case the GUI goes down, and for vary rare ocasions where it is more efficient to use the command line.
You mean kinda the way it is?
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Recovery console. Included with 2000, XP, and Server 2003.
That mode doesn't run multiuser, or network, or anything else. It's like "linux -s".
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Originally posted by JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder:
You mean kinda the way it is?
I think he means that all settings should be don from a GUI (= a very bad idea and not how UNIX-like systems work)
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That mode doesn't run multiuser, or network, or anything else. It's like "linux -s".
very good point.
I thought Server 2K3 added "Recovery Console with Network"
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I think he means that all settings should be don from a GUI (= a very bad idea and not how UNIX-like systems work)
It always worked for NeXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, and OS X.
but, I do agree... and GenSTEP will be fully open to the console. there should be console versions of all hardware configuration for UNIX, since you could do something like change a graphics setting in X11 and render it useless... if you don't know how to edit the config file, then you should have a good way to change these settings
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Jimmy you didn't answer my question. I hate you.
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I was refering to this distro when I said 64MB of RAM.
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That's why a command line should be even more integrated in any GUI.
A GUI itself is bloat
True.
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What you seem to want is GUI build in the kernel.
That must be the worsed idea ever.
Do you really think any Linux user would like this.
No.
I just mean that it should be totally unnecessary to learn the command line.
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Even Windows for Workgroups used a native Windows protected mode for some things.
Yes, you could install a 32 bit library and even run some Win95 software in Win3.11
And there was an earlier implementation of Win32 which is the one I think you're referring too. If I remember rightly it only let you allocate 32-bit memory for data, it was shit because you couldn't executed any code in these "extended 32 bit segments" although you could swap it in and out of them.
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No they shouldn't have. And Windows/386 did not use DOS for memory management
Then why did you need HIMEM.SYS loaded to run windows?
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When Win95 was released, you didn't need DOS drivers unless you specifically intended to use DOS on its own. The DOS box in Windows would use Windows drivers for everything.
They souldn't have used MS-DOS in the true sense of the word.
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Recovery console. Included with 2000, XP, and Server 2003.
I knew someone would say this.
Have you ever used recovery console before?
Do you know how much shit it really sucks?
You can't run any programs, either 32-bit console or 16-bit DOS.
It doesn't even allow you access to My Documents.
It doesn't load any CD burning or USB drivers so even if it did it would be fucking useless.
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I fully disagree. DOS was a crutch. It was seriously holding the software back. Look at the difference in Windows Me and Windows 2000. They're very similar, save for Windows Me is built on the Win95 kernel, and 2000 runs on NT.
I agree with you.
DOS Sucks.
This was just a bad choice of words on my part.
NT should have a proper command line interface. You should have been able to boot Win95 and run 32-bit console programs, use the USB, printer, CD-ROM, all with the windows drivers in text mode. In short, they should have ditched DOS16 back in 95, and used NT, but made the GUI optional. You don't need a GUI for a file server.
Anyway why the fuck are we arguing about Windows?
(http://graemlins/fu.gif) Windows!
It's not even worth discussion!
I try to do my best to forget the old Windows shit!
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The command line should be there just in case the GUI goes down, and for vary rare ocasions where it is more efficient to use the command line.
You mean kinda the way it is?
Sort of true, but will knowledge command line be even less inpotant in Komodo Linux?
It would be fucking excellent if all the setting could be adjusted in the GUI. Linux being an operating system that promotes choice, you should also be allowed to use the traditional command line without any graphics if you wish.
How easy will it be to install, set up and troubleshoot new hardware?
You've even said it your self:
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the system needs to be greatly simplified in the respect of hardware troubleshooting.
If you don't believe me Jimmy then check out this thread: http://forum.microsuck.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=002564&p=3 (http://forum.microsuck.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=002564&p=3)
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Jimmy you didn't answer my question. I hate you.
What question? It's possible I missed it with everybody blathering about this off-topic bullshit here.
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Tux was just ripping the piss out of me, for saying:
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Anyway you haven't answered any of my other questions Jimmy.
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I was refering to this distro when I said 64MB of RAM.
That's totally unrealistic. We're not making a bare-bones, stripped-down system here. Grow a pair and buy some more RAM.
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I just mean that it should be totally unnecessary to learn the command line.
But you just said that there should be a command line in Windows for troubleshooting. Make your damn mind up.
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Yes, you could install a 32 bit library and even run some Win95 software in Win3.11
>sigh<
Thick. There were parts of Windows that were full 386 protected mode dating all the way back to Windows 2.11/386. Windows For Workgroups added "32-bit Disk and File Access", which used 32-bit filesystem drivers.
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And there was an earlier implementation of Win32 which is the one I think you're referring too. If I remember rightly it only let you allocate 32-bit memory for data, it was shit because you couldn't executed any code in these "extended 32 bit segments" although you could swap it in and out of them.
Earlier implemenation of Win32? You mean Windows NT perhaps?
Look... Win32 is the 32-bit Windows API. You're thinking of "Win32s" which was a free add-on for Windows 3.x that let it run limited 32-bit Windows apps. It wouldn't work with Windows NT or Windows 95 apps, as they utilized the full Win32 API.
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Then why did you need HIMEM.SYS loaded to run windows?
Because Windows loaded as a regular real-mode app that would then switch to protected mode. Without himem, it would not be able to access enough memory to load itself into RAM.
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They souldn't have used MS-DOS in the true sense of the word.
No, they should have used some kind of magical orb that projected the image of DOS instead.
What should they have used then? They were doing their best to provide a good system that maintained backward-compatibility. They pretty much succeeded. You could leave Windows 95 entirely and run in MS-DOS so that you could run troublesome DOS apps. Tell me something... you're an AutoCAD user and you just bought AutoCAD R12, which ran on DOS (it wasn't until later that a Windows version was released). You have the original DOS version, and you get Windows 95.
AutoCAD will NOT run in the Windows 9x DOS box, nor will it run in the NT DOS VM. What you propose is something similar to the NT VDM, therefore, screwing over people who run finnicky apps, like AutoCAD. I don't know about you, but I don't think there's any way that I'd make the decision to drop real DOS support if I were in charge of 95.
[/quote]I knew someone would say this.
Have you ever used recovery console before?
Do you know how much shit it really sucks?
You can't run any programs, either 32-bit console or 16-bit DOS.
It doesn't even allow you access to My Documents.
It doesn't load any CD burning or USB drivers so even if it did it would be fucking useless.[/quote]
That's because it's a recovery console. How about you start a project to create tools that will run on recovery console?
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I agree with you.
DOS Sucks.
This was just a bad choice of words on my part.
NT should have a proper command line interface. You should have been able to boot Win95 and run 32-bit console programs, use the USB, printer, CD-ROM, all with the windows drivers in text mode. In short, they should have ditched DOS16 back in 95, and used NT, but made the GUI optional. You don't need a GUI for a file server.
As stated before, there's no way that NT would have worked. There were too many bossy DOS apps. Besides, Windows 95 was more advanced than NT in many ways when it was released.
I've got an idea. You go find Windows NT 3.5 and run it and tell me if that's better than 95.
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Anyway why the fuck are we arguing about Windows?
Because you hijacked my thread so that you could bitch about more bullshit.
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[FU] Windows!
It's not even worth discussion!
I try to do my best to forget the old Windows shit!
Then shut up about it.
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Sort of true, but will knowledge command line be even less inpotant in Komodo Linux?
I'm not sure about Komodo, but my aim for GenSTEP is to make the command line about as important as it is in OPENSTEP or Mac OS X.
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It would be fucking excellent if all the setting could be adjusted in the GUI. Linux being an operating system that promotes choice, you should also be allowed to use the traditional command line without any graphics if you wish.
Uh, not in Komodo or GenSTEP. If that's what you want, then get Slackware. Komodo and GenSTEP are optimized through and through for the user, meaning GUI.
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How easy will it be to install, set up and troubleshoot new hardware?
Seeing as we're still working on our hardware layer, I don't know. We plan it to be true plug-and-play. We hope it to be as good as Mac OS X. That comes with a price though. "Officially supported" hardware will be only a subset of all the hardware that exists today. Beyond that, you'll deal with normal Linux compatibility, which is still quite good.
If you give a shit about the 3D desktop, get a new vid card. That Savage Pro won't cut the mustard.
I kick ass.
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That's totally unrealistic. We're not making a bare-bones, stripped-down system here. Grow a pair and buy some more RAM.
Ok, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. If this OS is going to be as good as you say it is more RAM might be worth the money, but I hope you're not going to expect me to upgrade every year, just to run the latest version.
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But you just said that there should be a command line in Windows for troubleshooting. Make your damn mind up.
Exactly, when all is well, and you just want to install some hardware or software the command line shouldn't be needed. But if somthing goes wrong with KDE, say an essential file get fucked up, you should be able to boot into text mode command line and be able to fix the problem.
Windows 3.11 used protected mode for many reasons, apart from disk buffers and Win32s, but like you said, I think we're talking about completely differant uses of protected mode in Win3.1 FUCK WINDOWS you're right this isn't the place to talk about Fucking Windows but NT4 kicked Win95Bs arse! If hard drive Fucks up Recovery console should be at least allow you to back up your files!
Oh sorry, I promise to shut up about Windows now.
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We plan it to be true plug-and-play. We hope it to be as good as Mac OS X.
That's good (http://graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
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That comes with a price though. "Officially supported" hardware will be only a subset of all the hardware that exists today.
That's not so good.
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Beyond that, you'll deal with normal Linux compatibility, which is still quite good.
So I would be right in asuming that if your hardware isn't "Officially supported" you will have install it the usual long winded Linux way, oh well that's not too bad I suppose.
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If you give a shit about the 3D desktop, get a new vid card. That Savage Pro won't cut the mustard.
That sounds like more bloat to me, unless it has a useful purpose other than to look pretty.
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No, the Savage Pro is an old card. My dad has one he got in 2000. That's pretty old.
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Ok, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. If this OS is going to be as good as you say it is more RAM might be worth the money, but I hope you're not going to expect me to upgrade every year, just to run the latest version.
No modern desktop OS is happy in less than 256. Most of them today want 512. Just live with this and get 512.
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Exactly, when all is well, and you just want to install some hardware or software the command line shouldn't be needed. But if somthing goes wrong with KDE, say an essential file get fucked up, you should be able to boot into text mode command line and be able to fix the problem.
Okay, so the way it is. Great. Just to let you know, that's already the way things are.
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Windows 3.11 used protected mode for many reasons, apart from disk buffers and Win32s, but like you said, I think we're talking about completely differant uses of protected mode in Win3.1 FUCK WINDOWS you're right this isn't the place to talk about Fucking Windows but NT4 kicked Win95Bs arse! If hard drive Fucks up Recovery console should be at least allow you to back up your files!
Oh sorry, I promise to shut up about Windows now.
Sure
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That's good [Thumbs Up]
Yep.
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That's not so good.
Sure it is. Nearly everybody has a GeForce or Radeon vid card, or a major-chipset mobo, or whatever. You trade the ability to use any shitty ass no-name piece of hardware, for guaranteed stability. Once you get beyond "tested and confirmed" hardware, then you've still got a damn good chance of it working well, because Linux has great hardware support.
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So I would be right in asuming that if your hardware isn't "Officially supported" you will have install it the usual long winded Linux way, oh well that's not too bad I suppose.
No. If it's not officially supported, then it uses regular built-in drivers if they exist. By "Officially supported"... this means hardware that we have seen work. Stuff that has been tested and we can assure you will function right out of the box.
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That sounds like more bloat to me, unless it has a useful purpose other than to look pretty.
Then you don't know what bloat is, sucka. Sounds to me like a feature that every OS is supporting because even hardware from 02 works great with it. That S3 video IS SLOW AND SHITTY. Why the Hell do you try to act like it isn't? Damn dude, get with the rest of the world.
Get yourself more RAM, and a non shitty vid card. Trust me, you'll enjoy your computer a whole helluva lot more.
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The command line user interface should have long gone, GUIs are the future. A GUI doesn't need to be big a resource hog, it is possible to design a very good GUI that uses up way less than 1MB of memory.
The command line should just be there to fall back on in case the GUI fails. Text based operating systems are still good for file servers and batch data processing systems, but they are useless for any process that requires a lot of human intervention.
First, do you want the command line to stay or go? These two paragraphs contradict each other, even though they both show distaste for the command line.
Second, I don't think you realize the power and versatility of the command line. Let's look at two different scenarios:
1. I'm designing a website, and I need to create directories in my websites folder. I can either open konqueror or nautilus and right click, create folder, type the name new_website_1, double click the folder, right click, select new folder, type images, right click, select new folder, type data, and repeat this slow tedious process until my entire directory structure is complete.
Now, let's look at this option with the command line.
mkdir new_website_1 && cd new_website_1 && mkdir images data
Obviously the command line is the better option here. Let's look at another one:
2. I want to install new software. I can either run a program that formats all of the output from the configure/make/make install and directs it to a graphical program with nice pretty borders, making the output text nearly impossible to copy in case I have a problem or need to reference it later. I should also mention that the resources needed to reformat the text and make it look pretty are wasted, and could be used to build the program faster.
An install from the command line not only saves resources, but you can direct the output into a log file. For example:
./configure > configure_log
make > make_log
make install > install_log
You will be able to reference the entire installation and be able to find solutions to any dependency problems much easier, not to mention have a hard copy of where everything was installed.
The command line is obviously far from obsolete
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oooh I can't wait
thanks for all your work will
I have done basically nothing
been wrapped up in life
sorry about that
I can't wait to see
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quote:
jeffberg: Mac Capitalist: Tired of the MES? (http://erudition.calyptos.com/)
No sorry, MES is great ;)
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Hey Rio, long time no see. (http://smile.gif)
The commandline stay for when the GUI goes down and for people who want to use it like your self
The command line user interface sould disappear to the background for normal system administration.
To a certain extent this already happens in Linux, the problem I have with Linux is that some of the more powerful features are not easily discoverable. They are often hidden in the command line, you need to RTFM or ask someone before you know they exist.
For example if I install the wrong video driver, I would have to restore the XF86Config file from the backup using the command line to get KDE back. How the fuck would someone who has never done this before find this out?
They would have to RTFM or ask someone.
If they were using Windows it would either revert back to the previous driver or, go into safe mode and provide them with the same GUI to correct the problem.
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Originally posted by Aloone:
Tux was just ripping the piss out of me, for saying:
Wrong, I actually asked a question:
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Originally posted by JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder:
- MsgService
Provides a mail-like IPC service. Applications register identities to utilize the service. To request an identity's "mail", you must supply the proper password that the app gave at registration too. I only put security in places I knew it would be hard to implement at the app level. For instance you can probably spoof messages and that's the fun of it. No application should use this for mission-critical communication anyway right now. The spoofing part I'm sure will spawn little apps that manipulate other apps which is a plus for Komodo.
Could I ask what the point of that is?
You seem to be reinventing several wheels
:rolleyes:
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Hey Rio, long time no see.
Yep, work has been keeping me busy. I browse the forums a few times a week, but don't get the time to post that I would like (http://smile.gif)
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The commandline stay for when the GUI goes down and for people who want to use it like your self
The command line user interface sould disappear to the background for normal system administration.
To a certain extent this already happens in Linux, the problem I have with Linux is that some of the more powerful features are not easily discoverable. They are often hidden in the command line, you need to RTFM or ask someone before you know they exist.
You are correct that it takes more time to learn the command line. Fortunately though, it tends to be very consistent across the board. For instance, commands and their options don't differ a whole lot. Or what works on one command, tends to work on another.
I use Slack as my day to day distro, so I have the advantage of being forced to RTFM ;)
I think the only distro I've seen recently where the command line could actually be forgotten was Suse. YaST makes installing RPMs a series of clicks.
I'm kind of curious to see how GenSTEP behaves. I know Jimmy isn't much of a fan of cryptic commands either, but I wonder how intuitive the GUI can be at this stage of the game (beyond basic KDE/Gnome functionality). LOL....speaking of cryptic commands, I keep having to delete a series of "j"s after editing something because I forget I'm not in VIM :-D
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How is having to RTFM a good thing?
My design teacher always used to say, "With a poorly designed product you always have to RTFM"
Jimmy, will the 3D desktop serve a useful purpose?
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Nearly everybody has a GeForce or Radeon vid card, or a major-chipset mobo, or whatever.
No, nearly every Linux user has, not very many Windows users do.
For example the PC I am currently using (I'm at work at the moment) has an ATI 3D RAGE PRO, and it's not too bad.
My previous PC also had a similar ATI card, and that was OK too. (http://tongue.gif)
[ July 21, 2004: Message edited by: Aloone ]
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quote:
Jimmy, will the 3D desktop serve a useful purpose?
As I explained, it'll be used to accelerate desktop rendering, much like Quartz Extreme does. It will add some "nifty" features like drop shadows and alpha translucency, but I want to keep the eye-candy to a minimum. I think that something can be attractive without being gaudy
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Jimmy take off your sunglasses I think they have a Tux filter.
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sorry!
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Could I ask what the point of that is?
You seem to be reinventing several wheels
Well, I think it's going to be significantly more advanced, much more capable than current *nix IPC methods.
Either that, or he's just doing it so that it will conform to Granite (C++), Marble (C#), and GenSTEP (Obj-C) APIs
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k, cool.
I might try and talk to fury sometime.
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quote:
How is having to RTFM a good thing?
My design teacher always used to] say, "With a poorly designed product you always have to RTFM"
Jimmy, will the 3D desktop serve a useful purpose?
Very few good products can be used to their full potential without reading a manual or documentation. Adobe Photoshop is a prime example. With a good book or tutorial, it drastically shortens the learning curve. I doubt anyone can claim Photoshop isn't a spectacular program.
A thing most people forget is that a user friendly program is not the program that is the easiest to use. That is user intuitive. The user friendly program is the one that does everything the user wants it to.
Windows = User Intuitive
Linux = User Friendly
[ July 21, 2004: Message edited by: Rio ]
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agreed. it's easier to "figure out" a simple UI... so many people go for that.
you can have a friendly UI and it not be simple.
however, Adobe's UIs are neither friendly nor good.
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I want to keep the eye-candy to a minimum.
I hate eye-candy too, it's just bloat. (http://graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
If you promise that the 3D desktop will make it easier too use or serve some other purpose then I might buy a new graphics card!
I would say simple is good but not retardedly simple.
I liked some of the older versions of Paint shop pro, as they were easier to use than the newer versions.
XP is retardedly simple.
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eye-candy has its place.
in this day-and-age it's what sets you apart from the rest. it's a natural extension of appearance.
Windows goes for very simple, honestly, eye-candy. alpha-blended icons, fades, et cetera. OS X goes all out with watery ripples, drop-shadows, and reflections.
the power of modern computers makes it superfluous. I don't mind eye-candy. it makes an otherwise boring experience kinda nice. I rather like it that menus fade in. the human brain expects transitions. so, many times, eye candy is psychologically less jarring.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rio:
A thing most people forget is that a user friendly program is not the program that is the easiest to use. That is user intuitive. The user friendly program is the one that does everything the user wants it to.
Windows = User Intuitive
Linux = User Friendly
[ July 21, 2004: Message edited by: Rio ]
Mmm not quite. The difference is really between user-friendliness and usability (I'd have said user-intuitive and user-friendly meant the same thing). A user friendly program is the program that's easiest to use, while a usable program is one that does everything the user wants it to. So really it's
Unix = Usable
Windows = User friendly
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quote:
Originally posted by Rio:
Very few good products can be used to their full potential without reading a manual or documentation. Adobe Photoshop is a prime example. With a good book or tutorial, it drastically shortens the learning curve. I doubt anyone can claim Photoshop isn't a spectacular program.
A thing most people forget is that a user friendly program is not the program that is the easiest to use. That is user intuitive. The user friendly program is the one that does everything the user wants it to.
Windows = User Intuitive
Linux = User Friendly
[ July 21, 2004: Message edited by: Rio ]
that is an aswome way of putting it! I should use that as a sig!
:D