Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Linux and UNIX => Topic started by: Duo Maxwell on 19 October 2003, 16:17
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My cousin is givin' me his old crap-box wintel 98, and being a Mac user and for the most-part computer literate and one of only like 20 tech minded in the city of Racine have no idea what to do with it, I know I don't want to keep a mi
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Warez applications are very frowned upon on this forum.
As for your old crap-box PC. Install a Linux distro. Problem solved. (http://smile.gif)
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Be OS Max (http://beosmax.org/main.php)
It's free, full featured, fast, high tech, and is a dream to use.
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I'm not really looking for warez, I can find that on my own time or get a few copies off some friends but, what software do you recommend I put on it, since I've always had a terrible time with command line stuff I may need instructions, since this is going to be a learning experience with an OS I've never used before.
But like I said, I'm a cheap bastard and was wondering if theres like a versiontracker.com or macupdate.com that I could go to and get freeware, donationware and shareware?
On the main site theres tons of free alternative OSs listed but with that many options I thought I'd ask first before D/Ling OS after OS and not being able to figure out how a dumb bastard like me could get it to work.
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http://fedora.redhat.com/download/#download (http://fedora.redhat.com/download/#download)
easiest version of linux to use out there
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I say Be OS. Coming from Macs, you'll love the UI. It's also faster even than Linux. Easier to install and configure.
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BeOS. I definitely recommend BeOS.
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http://www.beincorporated.com/ (http://www.beincorporated.com/)
To our valued shareholders, partners, and customers:
We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for the support you've given Be Incorporated over the years.
At the special meeting of stockholders, held on November 12, 2001, Be's stockholders approved the sale of substantially all of its intellectual property and other technology assets to Palm, Inc. and the dissolution of Be through the adoption of a plan of dissolution. Under the asset purchase agreement that closed on November 13, 2001, Be received Palm common stock valued at $11,000,000 and as announced Be sold for cash the Palm shares promptly following the closing.
On September 5, 2003, Be and Microsoft reached a mutually acceptable mediated settlement of an antitrust lawsuit filed by Be Inc. in February 2002, which is currently pending in the United States District Court for the District of Maryland in Baltimore. Be will receive a payment from Microsoft, after attorney's fees, in the amount of $23,250,000.00 (U.S.) to end further litigation.
Be intends to pay all of its outstanding liabilities and obligations in accordance with applicable law and the plan of dissolution. Although there is no guarantee that any assets will remain after the satisfaction of all claims and obligations, any remaining assets would be available for distribution to Be stockholders. Be intends to provide more guidance as to an estimated return to shareholders once it has completed its tax analysis and has received approval from the Delaware courts regarding its final dissolution procedure plan. Be is unable at this time to predict the precise nature, amount, and timing of any distributions.
The board of directors of Be undertook extensive activities since early 2000 to evaluate and to pursue financing alternatives for the company to allow for its continuation and the creation of value for our stockholders, but no adequate source of capital was available on terms beneficial to Be stockholders. We hired Lehman Brothers Inc. to assist us in conducting an extensive search for parties interested in a merger or acquisition transaction. Except for the asset purchase agreement that was entered into with Palm, none of the numerous discussions we held with third parties resulted in any acceptable offers or the execution of any definitive agreements.
Your board of directors also considered our anticipated prospects assuming completion of the asset sale. After due consideration of all other alternatives available to Be, including the cessation of Be's business and the initiation of bankruptcy proceedings, the board of directors concluded the completion of the asset sale and implementation of the plan of dissolution of Be was the only alternative reasonably likely to enable us to satisfy our outstanding obligations and to maximize the return of value to our stockholders.
Again, we want to extend our sincerest thanks to every one of you who helped Be Incorporated bring its contribution to the progress of desktop and internet appliance operating systems.
Sincerely,
Be Incorporated
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Yeah, and?
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I was wonderin' what OSs you guys have tried http://www.planeshift.it/ (http://www.planeshift.it/) on? It's a still developing opensource MMORPM that is out for winblow$ and Linux and is in development for OS X. I doubt the system I'm gettings hardware is capable of but maybe with a few mods I could handle it.
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Mandrake 9.2 releases to the public soon, and i believe you can get torrents of it someplace!
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and I heartily stand by my suggestion: Be OS
http://www.beosmax.org (http://www.beosmax.org)
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don't get Be OS, you'll have nothing but problems, and frustration, well maybe, I don't know, I've never actually used it.....
Any way I think you should get Mandrake 9.1 or 9.2
there is a very large linux community out there, so if you run into problems all you need do is go on the internet.
Mandrake is easy, secure, and comes with alot of up to date stuff.
the nice thing about linux is the number of free/open, and free/free software out there.
just go to freshmeat (http://freshmeat.net), or sourceforge (http://sourceforge.net) and see all the apps
and if your using OSX on your MAC, you're a *nix head too :D
[ October 19, 2003: Message edited by: suselinux ]
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well maybe, I don't know, I've never actually used it.....
That I can tell. :rolleyes:
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I may try a few different ones. Can I boot off an external drive? If so how would I go about setting up a Firewire(ieee 1394 iLink) or USB 2.0 card under the OSs mentioned, I have an OWC Firewire400/USB2 case with a spare 60Gb in there with most of my tunes on it.
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you can boot from an external drive only if the BIOS supports it. Most newer BIOS do.
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Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
and I heartily stand by my suggestion: Be OS
http://www.beosmax.org (http://www.beosmax.org)
BeOS is not supported enough, powerless, and has no future.
Stick with Linux(or freeBSD).
http://www.linuxiso.org (http://www.linuxiso.org)
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BeOS is not supported enough, powerless, and has no future.
How much hardware support will you ever need on an old crap-box Wintel?
Powerless? Have you even used BeOS? It has unix-style command line (sh), like Linux and FreeBSD. It's very stable, like other unices. It was Apple's first choice to be used for their OS X, before they decided to use OpenStep instead. It boots in a few seconds, unlike Linux. It has an easy, way better windowing interface than that old, clunky X11 piece of shit. And yes, you can even install X11 on BeOS, and with only a few mouse clicks.
No future? Ever heard of YellowTab (http://www.yellowtab.com/), OpenBeOS (http://www.openbeos.org/), Blue Eyed OS (http://www.blueeyedos.com/)?
Still, if you want to make a server, then FreeBSD is an excellent choice.
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I have several questions about Be OS.
1. Is there a completely free (as in GPL/BSD license) version of it that works as well as the proprietary version?
2. How many devices does it support? More or less than Linux? Would it work on my laptop? (Toshiba Satellite, DVD/CDRW combo drive, Nvidia geforce 4 go, ACPI power management)
3. What is it based on? Unix? Some type of BSD? Something else?
4. The only screenshots I've seen of Be OS look downright ugly to me. Around the same quality that KDE version 1.0 looked. Has this improved, and where can I see some better screenshots?
5. How many people are developing it? More or less than Linux or FreeBSD?
6. What kind of software management system does it use? Can I install and use apt for it?
7. What exactly makes it easier to use than, say, Fedora/Red Hat Linux or SuSE?
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1. Is there a completely free (as in GPL/BSD license) version of it that works as well as the proprietary version?
There's OpenBeOS and BlueEyedOS, but they're not ready yet.
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2. How many devices does it support? More or less than Linux? Would it work on my laptop? (Toshiba Satellite, DVD/CDRW combo drive, Nvidia geforce 4 go, ACPI power management)
Yup.
http://www.bedrivers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5 (http://www.bedrivers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5)
B&W with the default driver. But usable nvidia 4 drivers are in development, and available.
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/be-hold/BeOS/NVdriver/index.html (http://web.inter.nl.net/users/be-hold/BeOS/NVdriver/index.html)
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3. What is it based on? Unix? Some type of BSD? Something else?
It resembles UNIX, and shares many of its features, but BeOS is an OS of its own.
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4. The only screenshots I've seen of Be OS look downright ugly to me. Around the same quality that KDE version 1.0 looked. Has this improved, and where can I see some better screenshots?
YellowTab from Zeta (http://www.yellowtab.com/products/screenshots.php) has the most updated BeOS interface you'll find.
Older versions (http://www.hilppa.org/~ilzu/ScummVM/screenshots.html) are rather plain, though, so you may want to theme (http://qdgtruie.free.fr/BeTheme.html) it if you want a non-commercial version.
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5. How many people are developing it? More or less than Linux or FreeBSD?
I can't tell how many, but they are quite a few.
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6. What kind of software management system does it use?
Drag. Or .pkg files.
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Can I install and use apt for it?
Trust me, you won't need it. You can compile it from source, but there would be little point in doing so, as the native BeOS packages do not support apt.
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7. What exactly makes it easier to use than, say, Fedora/Red Hat Linux or SuSE?
See above. Also, it is, like the Mac OS, a spatial environment, rather than a centralised one. It's hard to explain, so you may want to refer to my posts in this thread. (http://forum.microsuck.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000646)
[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7: Has half Macman's posts ]
[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7: Has half Macman's posts ]
[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7: Has half Macman's posts ]
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1) BeOS Max is the original BeOS codebase. There are several OSS Be derivatives. Last time I checked, our intrepid gundam pilot here wasn't concerned with Open Sourcedness
2) All of those mentioned. Be OS Max runs equally well on VPC5 and 6 as it does on a PMMX 233 with an S3 ViRGE, and a Celeron 633 with GeForce4. All my hardware is supported.
3) It's based on Be OS. I don't understand the assumption that everything has to be "based on" something else. Maybe every now and then someone creates their own fucking OS.
4) That's your opinion, stop stating it as fact. he's used to Macs, and Be will be more akin to the classic Mac OS, and therefore more like Mac OS X. I don't know how much experience Duo has with other platforms. All I know is that he knows Macs, and I'm suggesting to him an OS with a similar UI... as Be is based heavily on the classic Mac OS.
5) Less, but software is more like Mac OS, and therefore is simpler in nature, and higher quality.
6) Most Be software is contained in a single icon. You don't need management. Again, some people actually strive to be better and come up with something that's not just another UNIX. Be's idea for packages comes from NeXT. Fuck aptget. I'd rather drag an icon.
7) Because it's not UNIX. It's got a POSIX layer and can run some UNIXish command-line junk, but Be, like Mac OS or NT, is graphical from its core. That makes it inherently easier.
As for the statement that Be is dead... you *could* say that. The Be OS codebase continues though. YellowTab Zeta, BlueEyed OS, and several others are continuing development.
Duo, if you've got AIM or iChat, or any AIM client, IM me at murdock160
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4) That's your opinion, stop stating it as fact. he's used to Macs, and Be will be more akin to the classic Mac OS, and therefore more like Mac OS X. I don't know how much experience Duo has with other platforms. All I know is that he knows Macs, and I'm suggesting to him an OS with a similar UI... as Be is based heavily on the classic Mac OS.]
I think Linux User was asking those questions for himself.
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How much hardware support will you ever need on an old crap-box Wintel?
More than on a new one.
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Powerless? Have you even used BeOS? It has unix-style command line (sh), like Linux and FreeBSD. It's very stable, like other unices.
I still use it.
It's nice. But their's not enough support for it.
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It was Apple's first choice to be used for their OS X, before they decided to use OpenStep instead.
I'm not a big fan of OS X.
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It boots in a few seconds, unlike Linux.
You can boot any unix just as fast. In default, Linux boots slower, this is cause it loads a bigger kernel into your memory. Since you don't have to reboot a server based system, this does make your system run faster.
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It has an easy, way better windowing interface than that old, clunky X11 piece of shit. And yes, you can even install X11 on BeOS, and with only a few mouse clicks.
You don't understand X11.
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No future? Ever heard of YellowTab (http://www.yellowtab.com/), OpenBeOS (http://www.openbeos.org/), Blue Eyed OS (http://www.blueeyedos.com/)?
...that's all?
(Hopefully for BeOS that's enough, but I doubt it...)
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Still, if you want to make a server, then FreeBSD is an excellent choice.
Most UNIX based systems are excellent servers.
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But their's not enough support for it.
The issue here is not support. Duo already has a well-supported computer that runs OS X.
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I'm not a big fan of OS X.
I am. And Duo Maxwell appears to be one as well.
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You can boot any unix just as fast. In default, Linux boots slower, this is cause it loads a bigger kernel into your memory. Since you don't have to reboot a server based system, this does make your system run faster.
I know about the services and the bigger kernel. I customise my FreeBSD kernel to make it load faster.
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You don't understand X11.
Many people more knowledgeable than I am hate X11. It's tedious to configure and dated. It's not for nothing that Apple, BeOS and AtheOS, don't use it by default. There are even community projects like Fresco are aiming to offer a better alternative to X11.
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...that's all?
http://www.cosmoe.com/ (http://www.cosmoe.com/)
http://www.beosmax.org/main.php (http://www.beosmax.org/main.php)
http://www.beunited.org/ (http://www.beunited.org/)
http://befree.berlios.de/ (http://befree.berlios.de/)
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I'm not a big fan of OS X.
Who fucking asked you?
You're not looking for an OS to run, HE IS. If you can't offer useful suggestions, then fuck off.
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You don't understand X11.
You're right. i don't. I don't understand how a tired ass, outmoded, low-tech, last-generation, dead-end turd like X11 still hangs around. And what the fuck does your statement mean anyway? Because he states that Be's framework is better (look at the tech specs... IT IS), and that you can install an X11 layer on Be... he "doesn't understand"...
One question...
DID YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT HE SAID?
I don't believe you did. Every other graphics framework is better than X11, even GDI. Yes, WINDOWS XP HAS A BETTER GRAPHIC FRAMEWORK.
Duo, if these guys haven't scared you off, IM me man... murdock160 on AIM. I'll talk to you straight, and we'll get something picked out.
And if you'll let me borrow Deathscythe, I'll end this petty squabbling! :D
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I highly suggest BeOS. Its a wonderful OS. Its fast and easy. Its very much like OS 9 and X. It is far easier than Linux. And the GUI won't crash on you like X11 does every 5 minutes. I use OSX, and on my PC I use BeOS and windows. I trashed my slackware installation cus I hated it. Linux with its archaic file structures and building code and using apt-get and ancient X11 which crashes like no other. Combined with its lack of response and visual cues as to when something is happening. All work together to make every distro of Linux THE least appealing OS that I have ever used.
Go with BeOS if you want to use the computer
Linux is good, combined with webmin, for a server. Webmin makes it so you never have to touch that archaic OS. Instead you can manage everything from any browser on any system.
I highly suggest BeOS. Try it first. Its small, and quick and easy to install. So then if you don't like it you don't lose much time. Then if you don't like BeOS you can spend hours playing around with the installation of some bloated 3 disc linux distro. I KNOW you won't like that. So at that point its time to use MS or just salvage the PC for RAM, optical drives, and Hard Drives.
Good Luck, I wish you good PC'in.... although it can't be that good if your a mac user. I hate using my PC no matter what OS is on it.
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Then if you don't like BeOS you can spend hours playing around with the installation of some bloated 3 disc linux distro. I KNOW you won't like that.
I second that. For nearly three years I've been toying aimlessly and switching between various Linux distros, trying to escape the Microsoft monopoly. I tried to like Linux, but none of the distros ever satisfied me completely; all that time I lost tinkering my Linux distro(s) to my taste, all that time lost installing package after package to get the features I need, without ever knowing what to install, and ending up with a huge maze of similar applications, few of which I actually used. Even with apt I had problems. All that for distros that look too much like the OS I wanted to escape in the first place.
Eventually I got SICK of Linux, and decided to revert to Windows and BeOS until I get the money to buy a Mac, which I should have done in the first place, as it was what I really wanted for a long time. Fortunalely, as I entered college, I have the chance to use Mac OS X at school, and I use it as much as possible.
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Linux is not a desktop system.
'nuff said.
it's great for servers, but forget it on the desktop
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Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
Linux is not a desktop system.
'nuff said.
it's great for servers, but forget it on the desktop
Exactly my op
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IM me sometime, Laukev, if ya got an AIM client
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Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
IM me sometime, Laukev, if ya got an AIM client
I don't have an AIM client yet, as I use Yahoo. You probably use iChat, so you don't have to deal with AOL crap (I loathe them ever since they made those bigoted anti-French jokes). Is there any good AIM client you could recommend me other than AOL's client (cross-platform if possible)? I really don't know much about IM clients, as I have rarely used them until now.
Edit: I don't mind using their protocol, as long as I don't get brainwashed like the AOLers after prolonged exposure to AOL paraphernalia.
[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7: Has half Macman's posts ]
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on most platforms, there's gaim, and Windows has Trillian... it's pretty decent. I know there's others.
versiontracker.com has quite a few. I'd say gaim, though. it seems to be a good cross-platform client
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Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
Linux is not a desktop system.
'nuff said.
it's great for servers, but forget it on the desktop
Oh FUCK no, you didn't say that.
:mad: :mad: :mad:
give it three years max, and Linux will have a greater desktop market share.
[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: suselinux ]
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Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
I say Be OS. Coming from Macs, you'll love the UI. It's also faster even than Linux. Easier to install and configure.
No Mac GUI ive ever seen is faster than my linux box with BlackBox.
Oh you are probably referring to KDE or gnome. Since they arent integral parts of linux, they cant be judged as such.
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Oh FUCK no, you didn't say that.
give it three years max, and Linux will have a greater desktop market share.
Linux is not a desktop system.
'Nuff said.
I don't give a fuck about three years in the future, besides, I've been hearing that same tired rhetoric now for ages. Give it up. Home users don't give a fuck about Linux because it doesn't work for them. Make it work for them and they will. I've yet to see any progress.
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No Mac GUI ive ever seen is faster than my linux box with BlackBox.
Oh you are probably referring to KDE or gnome. Since they arent integral parts of linux, they cant be judged as such.
BlackBox isn't integral, either. And they all ride on X11... and X11 SUCKS ASS. What does it take to get that through?!?
And you've obviously never used any of the older Macs. Let's see your precious Linux haul a full-color GUI around on a 16 MHz 68030
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Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
And the GUI won't crash on you like X11 does every 5 minutes.
Well look at this. It is obvious you know nothing about the stability of X. X-Windows almost never crashes on me, and i have kept X windows up for over 100 days before with constant use and no problems. You just keep telling yourself that BeOS is better than linux and I will keep laughing.
http://hackthiscomputer.cjb.net/morethan5minutes.png (http://hackthiscomputer.cjb.net/morethan5minutes.png)
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Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
BlackBox isn't integral, either. And they all ride on X11... and X11 SUCKS ASS. What does it take to get that through?!?
And you've obviously never used any of the older Macs. Let's see your precious Linux haul a full-color GUI around on a 16 MHz 68030
I never said blackbox was integral. My point was that with a light weight window manager, and not a resource hog like KDE or Gnome, the gui is much quicker. Besides this argument is linux versus mac, it is linux versus BeOS.
Right now linux is far better supported than BeOS. In fact OpenBSD and NetBSD are far better supported than BeOS. BeOS probably doesnt have much of a future right now, this might change if *nix users give up their better supported more updated OS and embrace BeOS head on, however I dont see this happening.
This comes back to whether windows users should try linux or any other alternative operating system. The truth is that you will end up with less support, less software, less knowledge about the OS when you sway away from the mainstream. This alone scares people away from trying a new and different OS. Me telling you not to use BeOS for the same reason that people told me not to use linux would be wrong. Use what you wish to use.
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Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
Duo, if these guys haven't scared you off, IM me man... murdock160 on AIM. I'll talk to you straight, and we'll get something picked out.
And if you'll let me borrow Deathscythe, I'll end this petty squabbling! :D
What me scared off!? I wouldn't dream of it. I'm The Great Destroyer, how could a guy with a Piloting handle like that be scared off?
Sure You can barrow the Death Scythe Hell, I'm still using the original, and I'm looking for spare parts on the Custom.
But all that aside, The specs I have to work with are an old cartage type Pentium 2 300Mhz, which piss me the hell off since I just got through putting a an 800Mhz P2 in place of a 700Mhz P2 in another cousins computer and kept the 700 thinking I could use it. 128Mb-O-ram and winblow$ says the drive is a mere 2Gb. So will what you guys have been suggesting work on this very meager setup? I cant get a mouse to work on it or can remember how to erase a win98 install, but I'm kinda proficient at running winblow$ with just a keyboard.
At the very least I got a free IBM 2 button=scroll wheel optical mouse. works great under OS X!
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web page (http://www.newsforge.com/business/03/08/13/1424212.shtml?tid=3)
web page (http://slate.msn.com/id/2084727/)
Chew on these Mactards (http://smile.gif)
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Originally posted by ThePreacher:
Well look at this. It is obvious you know nothing about the stability of X. X-Windows almost never crashes on me, and i have kept X windows up for over 100 days before with constant use and no problems. You just keep telling yourself that BeOS is better than linux and I will keep laughing.
http://hackthiscomputer.cjb.net/morethan5minutes.png (http://hackthiscomputer.cjb.net/morethan5minutes.png)
Strange. BeOS was the first alternative OS I've used on the x86 (not including Mac emulation), and I liked it much more than any Linux distro I used subsequently.
I have not had any X11 crash either, but it certainly isn't the greatest GUI manager out there. I've heard of many Linux users much more experienced than I am who hate X11, so I suspect it's not only a question of savoir faire. Even with an extensive knowledge of X11, it remains clunky and tedious to configure. Just because you know how to use X11 doesn't mean it is an enjoyable experience.
I don't know exactly why you consider Linux better than BeOS, assuming you have even used the latter. It has the same command line interface as Linux (although not fullscreen), and the configuration files work the same. Many of the major free/open source apps are available for BeOS. I haven't had any more crashes with BeOS than Linux, and as I said, if you really want to you can install X11 and Enlightenment, or any WM available for BeOS.
Edit: Damn, late again. Oh, well.
[ October 21, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7: Has half Macman's posts ]
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Mac OS X > BeOS > FreeBSD > Mac OS 9 > Linux > Windows NT/2000/XP > Windows 9x
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Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
suselinux, it's guys like Preacher who help me keep my faith in Linux. it's dipshits like you who make me hate it. fuck off you opinionated asswipe
Dipshit?
Opinionated?
Hey those were published findings, saying that Linux isn't a Desktop OS because it sucks is.
but rest assured that you do not make me hate Apple.
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Linux is not a desktop system.
Are just trolling, or do you mean this.
All big distros are Desktop-Linux.
The desk on my Slackware box is faster than any Mac, Windows or BeOS Desk(and a lot more configurable).
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The issue here is not support.
Support is always an issue, ask any person who's building something new, how inportant it is.
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Many people more knowledgeable than I am hate X11. It's tedious to configure and dated. It's not for nothing that Apple, BeOS and AtheOS, don't use it by default. There are even community projects like Fresco are aiming to offer a better alternative to X11.
I find all these "more knowledgeable" people stupid.
X11 is more configurable than anything.
I still haven't read any argument against it on this board. "X11 is old" is NOT an argument. It's not even old.
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You're not looking for an OS to run, HE IS. If you can't offer useful suggestions, then fuck off.
And start lying like you?
You don't know shit about computing.
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You're right. i don't.
Than stop lying about it!
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I don't understand how a tired ass, outmoded, low-tech, last-generation, dead-end turd like X11 still hangs around.
You don't undestand anything about it.
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And what the fuck does your statement mean anyway? Because he states that Be's framework is better (look at the tech specs... IT IS), and that you can install an X11 layer on Be... he "doesn't understand"...
Look at ALL the "tech specs" (...if you can...).
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One question...
DID YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT HE SAID?
I don't believe you did. Every other graphics framework is better than X11, even GDI. Yes, WINDOWS XP HAS A BETTER GRAPHIC FRAMEWORK.
One question for you...
IS THAT A JOKE OR DO YOU KNOW THAT LESS.
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And the GUI won't crash on you like X11 does every 5 minutes.
That's plain wrong.
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Combined with its lack of response and visual cues as to when something is happening.
Again, that's plain wrong.
If you want to use BeOS, fine...
But why always these silly lies about Linux?
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You don't undestand anything about it.
Oh yeah? Why don't you fucking tell me what's so great about it? What makes it so good? If it's so damn awesome, why did NeXT NOT USE IT, why did RISC OS NOT USE IT, why did Amiga NOT USE IT.
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I find all these "more knowledgeable" people stupid.
X11 is more configurable than anything.
I still haven't read any argument against it on this board. "X11 is old" is NOT an argument. It's not even old.
"more configurable" might have something to do with what's wrong with it. The damn thing is too hard for average people to set up.
And we know it's not "old", but it's TIRED.
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One question for you...
IS THAT A JOKE OR DO YOU KNOW THAT LESS.
Ha ha ha ha!! Jokes are funny! And that's not a joke... GDI is better than X11. GDI supports layering, limited alpha blending, and is tied to the kernel, meaning that it's part of the core system, not an afterthought.
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That's plain wrong.
Is it? Have you ever heard the phrase "Your mileage may vary"? I installed Linux on several machines... getting it up and running wasn't hard at all... but making it actually do anything was.
And don't give me the tired argument that "I need to learn more" because it's bullshit. Nobody's ever going to take your OS seriously if the learning curve involves buying a goddamn book.
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Again, that's plain wrong.
Prove it. In my opinion, X11 and nearly all GUI frameworks for it (GNOME, KDE, et cetera) lack quite a bit in informing the user of what's happening.
And if you can state your opinions as facts, then I will too. Because Linux doesn't work for what I need it to, it sucks.
That's what's so shitty about the arguments. Nearly all of them boil down to "well, Linux is better for what I do"... and therefore you believe that it's better for someone else... JUST BECAUSE YOU USE IT FOR SOMETHING.
I tried to like it, I really did, but all the stuff that I was told makes Linux so great was what made it so frustrating to use. I tried for a week to use my PC as a DHCP server with Linux (RH8) and COULD NOT. This was on top of X11 being a flaky ass bastard and not wanting to run more than half the time.
I restarted to XP, patched the bastard up, turned on Internet Connection Sharing, and ran it headless on my cable modem for two months... ZERO INFECTIONS OF ANYTHING. And that was during the period of all those worm attacks. Was I hurt by them? No.
Linux is great for people that know and care about UNIX. I know enough UNIX to get me around a shell window, to start and kill processes. But none of this matters. I run OS X, so all the UNIX shit can exist without me knowing or giving a shit, because I don't.
I think I can sum it up... I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT UNIX. All I care about... and all anybody, except obviously you guys... care about is using their computer. /etc, root access, X11 configuration, window managers, config files, fsck, interactive startup... NOBODY CARES.
As long as their computer works, that's what matters.
In my experience, Be just works. In my experience, Linux doesn't quite make it there. I don't care because I run an OS built on NeXTStep. NeXT/OS X does, always has, and always will kick the shit outta plain-vanilla UNIX and clones.
NEXTSTEP RULES
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quote:
All big distros are Desktop-Linux.
Linux distros can be used for the desktop. They're just not good at it. What can you expect when most Linux distros rip off the Windows interface, which isn't even a good desktop model in the first place?
The desk on my Slackware box is faster than any Mac, Windows or BeOS Desk
That explains why it takes me 5-10 seconds to open the trash can in KDE. Even on FreeBSD.
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(and a lot more configurable).
If you can figure it out how to find, let alone edit the myriads of configuration files. Even through the graphical configuration panels it is a pain. And don't even start on installing other desktop environments. When the DE was not included with the distro, I've had to edit a files just to make the DE appear in the KDM/GDM menu! Linux may be theoretically more configurable, but its very tedious work.
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X11 is more configurable than anything.
That is, if you like spending hours editing configuration files. You can't configure X11 any more with the wizards (graphical or command line) than Aqua and others. And configuring X11, while possible, is a painful process, whether with wizards or config files.
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I still haven't read any argument against it on this board.
You mean like the fact that you have to open a wizard, and log off each time you want to change the resolution and colour settings without having the screen move all the tme?
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So would you bickering twits stop bitchin at each other for a min and tell me if the OS your suggesting, Office app if you can and web browser will work with the specs I gave in my last post. I'm thinking Be will be the best for what I'm wanting, I'll try others when I can get another, much larger HD in there.
Know where I can get the old style drives that will still fit other than ebay?
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OK, I think you people are entitled to use whatever OS you want, but honestly I can't take any more of this mindless X11/Linux bashing. Time to disperse some lies!!
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That explains why it takes me 5-10 seconds to open the trash can in KDE. Even on FreeBSD.
This is either a lie or you are using a year-old version of KDE. Konqueror 3.1.4 loads in less than two seconda on my laptop from a cold start.
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If you can figure it out how to find, let alone edit the myriads of configuration files. Even through the graphical configuration panels it is a pain. And don't even start on installing other desktop environments. When the DE was not included with the distro, I've had to edit a files just to make the DE appear in the KDM/GDM menu! Linux may be theoretically more configurable, but its very tedious work.
Oh where to begin. Look, configureability doesn't mean something is hard to use. If you want to actually *use* GNU/Linux, then use it. Out of the box configurations usually work just fine. The point he is trying to make is that Linux is capable of being configured in hundreds of more ways than OS X or Be OS could ever dream of doing. It is one of the most flexible operating systems ever devised.
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That is, if you like spending hours editing configuration files. You can't configure X11 any more with the wizards (graphical or command line) than Aqua and others. And configuring X11, while possible, is a painful process, whether with wizards or config files.
Please download the latest Fedora test core, or use SuSE Linux 8.2. It is doubtful you will ever touch the XF86Config file because they both do a superb job of auto-detection. Anyway, Fedora/Red Hat Linux has an easy GUI tool for changing your display settings such as video card driver, etc.
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You mean like the fact that you have to open a wizard, and log off each time you want to change the resolution and colour settings without having the screen move all the tme?
In GNOME 2.4:
click the menu on the panel -> preferences -> screen resolution. Adjust it. You don't have to restart X (if you are using 4.3) This is just as easy as Windows XP. I admit, color settings require a logout, but it takes around 10 seconds to log in and out of X.
Now to comment on Jimmy James's comments:
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"more configurable" might have something to do with what's wrong with it. The damn thing is too hard for average people to set up.
Please don't lie. For the most part, using a modern desktop distribution like Red Hat or SuSE, it is easier to set up than Windows OR Mac OS X if you consider the wide amount of hardware it runs on. It is amazing it detects things as well as it does. Again, Red Hat comes with a graphical tool for you point-and-click nuts so you can easily choose your graphics settings. How much easier do you want it?
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Ha ha ha ha!! Jokes are funny! And that's not a joke... GDI is better than X11. GDI supports layering, limited alpha blending, and is tied to the kernel, meaning that it's part of the core system, not an afterthought.
First, all that stuff like alpha-blending and layering *will* be included soon in X. However I think it is kind of needless, except where massive eye-candy is concerned. Windows XP doesn't even make use of transparency in its default theme. Oh, and GDI being tied to the kernel is a very bad thing. Modular design will always be better. When GDI crashes it brings the entire fucking system down. Very bad, especially if you are running a server. Being modular doesn't make X slow. Warcraft III runs faster *emulated* on X with nvidia's drivers than my silly Windows XP installation runs it. How about that? I was doing remote desktop the other day on my LAN, and I accidentally ran Quake III, and I thought "OMG it's going to crash the computer", but lo and behold it loaded the thing and ran it, *remotely* at 15 fps. Can *any* other graphics system claim such remote display capabilities out of the box???
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Is it? Have you ever heard the phrase "Your mileage may vary"? I installed Linux on several machines... getting it up and running wasn't hard at all... but making it actually do anything was.
You know what, I'd like to see OS X or BeOS run on the wide range of hardware that Linux does and do half as good a job of autodetecting and configuring devices.
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I tried to like it, I really did, but all the stuff that I was told makes Linux so great was what made it so frustrating to use. I tried for a week to use my PC as a DHCP server with Linux (RH8) and COULD NOT. This was on top of X11 being a flaky ass bastard and not wanting to run more than half the time.
Oh boo hoo. Have you ever tried tldp.org?? Do you need wizards to lead you through everything? Maybe you do, but it's not like it will hurt you to actually learn what's going on behind the scenes when configuring a DHCP server.
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In my experience, Be just works. In my experience, Linux doesn't quite make it there. I don't care because I run an OS built on NeXTStep. NeXT/OS X does, always has, and always will kick the shit outta plain-vanilla UNIX and clones.
Yeah, the key word is "in your experience."
Linux, not NeXT is the master OS, know this. It is not the product that makes it so good, it is the process. Open collaboration and massive backing by large corporations such as IBM are catipulting Linux into the 21st century with more momentum than all other "alternative" OSes combined. In four years Linux will have a greater desktop market share than Windows. In ten more years it will be running on 98% of all computers, and in twenty years it will achieve self-awareness and begin programming itself.
Okay the last paragraph is just a joke, but you guys can take jokes right?
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quote:
Originally posted by Duo Maxwell:
So would you bickering twits stop bitchin at each other for a min and tell me if the OS your suggesting, Office app if you can and web browser will work with the specs I gave in my last post. I'm thinking Be will be the best for what I'm wanting, I'll try others when I can get another, much larger HD in there.
Know where I can get the old style drives that will still fit other than ebay?
Here's an idea. Try both Linux and Be OS and choose whatever one suits your needs best. ;)
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This is either a lie or you are using a year-old version of KDE. Konqueror 3.1.4 loads in less than two seconda on my laptop from a cold start.
No, I was using KDE 3.1. And admitedly, that's on a 1 GHz Pentium 3, but it's still quite long compared to BeOS on the same computer.
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Look, configureability doesn't mean something is hard to use
I did not say that. My point was that it is a pain to customise Linux desktops to the extent proposed by Insomnia.
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The point he is trying to make is that Linux is capable of being configured in hundreds of more ways than OS X or Be OS could ever dream of doing.
Maybe because Linux is just a kernel. You could do the same thing with Darwin.
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Please download the latest Fedora test core, or use SuSE Linux 8.2. It is doubtful you will ever touch the XF86Config file because they both do a superb job of auto-detection. Anyway, Fedora/Red Hat Linux has an easy GUI tool for changing your display settings such as video card driver, etc.
I have. I've used every SuSE Linux distro since 7.1, every Red Hat distro since 7.2 and every Mandrake distro since 7.2. You can configure the desktop, but anything beyond the GUI tools is tedious.
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click the menu on the panel -> preferences -> screen resolution. Adjust it. You don't have to restart X (if you are using 4.3) This is just as easy as Windows XP. I admit, color settings require a logout, but it takes around 10 seconds to log in and out of X.
So it took 10 years to implement such a simple task in one particular DE, whereas all the other windowing interfaces have been doing as standard?
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Please don't lie. For the most part, using a modern desktop distribution like Red Hat or SuSE, it is easier to set up than Windows OR Mac OS X if you consider the wide amount of hardware it runs on. It is amazing it detects things as well as it does. Again, Red Hat comes with a graphical tool for you point-and-click nuts so you can easily choose your graphics settings. How much easier do you want it?
Easier to set up than Mac OS X? lol
It's easier than booting from CD, running install, rebooting, using? No. Red Hat or SuSe are neither one easier to install than Mac OS X. There is NO configuration needed.
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Oh boo hoo. Have you ever tried tldp.org?? Do you need wizards to lead you through everything? Maybe you do, but it's not like it will hurt you to actually learn what's going on behind the scenes when configuring a DHCP server.
Heh. I tossed Maya Learning Edition in the garbage because to use it, you have to read tutorials.
1) Who cares what's going on behind the scenes? It's supposed to work for me, not the other way around.
2) Why should I have to go find outside help to do something that I can do with ONE BUTTON in another OS? Mac OS X has one-button connection sharing. One-button NAT firewall activation.
Windows let me share my cable connection by selecting a check-box and clicking OK. And then it ran for two months... I then plugged a screen into it, ran a few updates, restarted, and it's run for another month flawlessly.
See, this is what I always say, and I always get flamed for saying it... nobody will use Linux until it's that easy. Just because something is open source doesn't mean it's guaranteed to win. People just don't care.
Now stop acting like Linux is infallable and perfect. It's just another UNIX clone. It's not for everybody, and it doesn't always work. I point to my classic saying...
Your Mileage May Vary
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Nothing I have tried has been easier to use/setup than osX. NOTHING. Of course. I use osX for a desktop OS. For a server environment, i would use a linxu distro. Now, you can use most linux distros as a desktop os, its not like redhat or mandrake are really that hard. i am using my Red Hat install for office stuff and server stuff. No problem. It really depends on what you want to do with it. You want games? You want a webserver? You want a file server? Is this for school/work? It depends. Either way, i think you would be just fine with RedHat, Mandrake, or SuSE.
I suggest RedHat. It was super easy to install. Id say the easiest linux distro ive fucked around with. All of my "stuff" worked out of the box, scanner, camera, cd burner, and it even picked up my network and let me browse the other 2 machines without any configuration. RedHat has done a good job with keeping the UI consitent, and there are GUI tools for most things.
Oh yeah. RedHat is free-
http://www.linuxiso.org (http://www.linuxiso.org)
http://www.redhat.com (http://www.redhat.com)
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quote:
Originally posted by Duo Maxwell:
So would you bickering twits stop bitchin at each other for a min and tell me if the OS your suggesting, Office app if you can and web browser will work with the specs I gave in my last post. I'm thinking Be will be the best for what I'm wanting, I'll try others when I can get another, much larger HD in there.
Know where I can get the old style drives that will still fit other than ebay?
Manrake will take up about 1 maybe 1 1/2 Gigs (that includes about bazillion apps), you will get Mozilla/Netscape for Web, Mozilla, or Evolution for Email, and OpenOffice for Word processing and everything else you would expect in an MS compatible office suite.
I don't know how big Be is but it should come with basically everything you need as well.
As for old drives just look in your local phone book for a used computer store, they should have some, but don't buy it unless they are willing to prove to you it actually works.
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quote:
So would you bickering twits stop bitchin at each other for a min and tell me if the OS your suggesting, Office app if you can and web browser will work with the specs I gave in my last post. I'm thinking Be will be the best for what I'm wanting, I'll try others when I can get another, much larger HD in there.
Know where I can get the old style drives that will still fit other than ebay?
Sorry about that, I got carried away. Anyway, BeOS should work well with your computer. It supports Mozilla, Firebird, Netpositive and Opera web browsers. As for word processors, you can get Abiword for free, or Gobe 2.0 (demo or paid). You'll find most of what you need on Bebits (http://www.bebits.com/).
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Originally posted by Laukev7: Has half Macman's posts:
Sorry about that, I got carried away..
Yeah me too :(
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::looks around::
what?!? everybody looks at me like I should say I'm sorry or somethin'!
fuhgeddaboutit!
oh, what the hey. I'm sorry for bein' an insufferable asshole!
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth Jimmy James:
Linux is not a desktop system.
'Nuff said.
I don't give a fuck about three years in the future, besides, I've been hearing that same tired rhetoric now for ages. Give it up. Home users don't give a fuck about Linux because it doesn't work for them. Make it work for them and they will. I've yet to see any progress.
I have to agree with you. I've been hearing people say that Linux is going to take over soon since the mid/late 90's. To this day has it even came close to taking over? Nope.
You are absolutly right when you say Linux doesn't work well for most home users. Most home users have trouble operating Windows let alone Linux. Some people even think that Windows installers with configuration options are difficult to use. I'd hate to see those same people try to install something in Linux.
To this day, there aren't any GUI's Linux that I find appealing or attractive. Every GUI and every icon set for Linux just seems so generic looking if you ask me. I'm not overly impressed with the choice of fonts you get in most default Linux installs. When I install Linux I always install and use some of the MS fonts and some of the non-MS fonts that are installed with Windows. X11 is shit. Blackbox looks like ass. I've seen alot better black Visual Styles for XP(like the black version of Blackcomb Pro and the black version of Chrome 4 XP 2nd Generation).....however, I don't like black visual styles at all. Right now I'm using Chrome 4 XP 2nd generation...but I certainly am not using it's black version. I'm using the Blue w/Flag.
Using Linux isn't only frustration, it can be annoying as well. 1 thing that I find annoying about Linux is when you want to view your drives/partation the it always takes a like 10-15 seconds to do so because the ignorant OS has to scan your floppy drive and CD/DVD drives to see if there is any media in it...and if there is media in it it has to completely scan the media for it's files. Why in the fuck should it pre-fetch data on my CD, DVD, floppy media when all I want to do is view contents on a hard drive partation? It should only access the floppy/CD/DVD drives if I open the mount point for the drive with the media. Even after it has pre-loaded the stuff once, if I close out the browser and go back to mount points again say 30 seconds later it has to pre-load everything again.
Even if there is no media in your removable drives Linux insists on scanning the drives for a bit. Why would it continue accessing a CD drive if there is no disc in it(and it should see that the 1st time it accessed the drive)? I'm assuming that Linux doesn't use cache. What is so hard about such a supposed advanced OS using drive cache?
I have a huge list of Linux annoyances. I don't feel like typing them all up though. ;P
I think this is funny. Yesterday a friend of mine accidently booted into to Linux when he was using my computer. He called me in the room and he said, "What in the fuck is this shit?" He straight up said that it looked horrible(he is used to how nice I have Windows looking on this machine). He tried using it for a few minutes and he was lost. He said, "this system sucks man. It looks like shit and the way it works is retarded." "How do I get out of this shit and back into Windows? I want to play Blackhawk Down". Oh yeah! He also made a comment about the retarded startup sound that Linux played(KDE). He said that it sounded like something a weirdo would like. He booted into Mandrake 9.1.
Myself, I'd definatley recommend BeOS over Linux. Especially if you are already familiar with MacOS.
[ October 22, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]
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1 thing that I find annoying about Linux is when you want to view your drives/partation the it always takes a like 10-15 seconds to do so because the ignorant OS has to scan your floppy drive and CD/DVD drives to see if there is any media in it...and if there is media in it it has to completely scan the media for it's files.
Nothing like that happens to me. If anything that situation is more akin to Windows, because the "ignorant OS" auto-mounts every volume it has access to. It's probably automount doing that. I don't use automount because I don't like my OS behaving like windows and auto-mounting disks, or syncing floppy disks on every single write. Of course you can do that if you want under a Unix system; under Windows though you're just forced to.
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I'm assuming that Linux doesn't use cache. What is so hard about such a supposed advanced OS using drive cache?
Of course it does.
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I think this is funny. Yesterday a friend of mine accidently booted into to Linux when he was using my computer. He called me in the room and he said, "What in the fuck is this shit?" He straight up said that it looked horrible(he is used to how nice I have Windows looking on this machine). He tried using it for a few minutes and he was lost. He said, "this system sucks man. It looks like shit and the way it works is retarded." "How do I get out of this shit and back into Windows? I want to play Blackhawk Down". Oh yeah! He also made a comment about the retarded startup sound that Linux played(KDE). He said that it sounded like something a weirdo would like. He booted into Mandrake 9.1.
So what are you trying to say? That your friend is a cretin? That he judges an operating system as being "shit" on the basis that he is ignorant of how to use it? That he judges it on how it looks, as do you?
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I actually enjoy using Linux. And making it look good wasn't difficult. Its a matter of taste. I do not think windows looks good. I think 2000s look is better than xps Luna scheme, again, that is a matter of taste. Above all, i dig aqua. But there is more to this than how something looks. Looks only take you so far, then you get old and noone likes you (http://smile.gif) .
I like using linux purely for the fact that i can do whatever i want with it. No restrictions. I can use it as a desktop os, and a server. With each release, the distros are becomming easier and easier to use, and are actually taking care of the end user by making it consistent visually, and offering gui tools to do most things. Windows is easy, yeah, and it can do most things. But i feel that it is mediocre. It does a half ass job, when it works. And people are okay with that. Im not. Ive become to accustomed to systems that work, like macosX and Linux.
Getting linux to work wasnt hard. I installed it, and im done. It works. Perfectly. Same with my mac. Of course, the g4 and jaguar are built for each other, so there is less room for error. With windows, even xp, i had to go download new drivers, and it couldnt even pick up my linux machine or my mac. Then I had to install more software, like office apps, web browsers, couldn't get rid of IE, or Media Player, or MSN Messenger, and couldn't change the theme easily. Then i had to run windows update, restart 4 times, then put the windows disc back in so i could install IIS. After all this trouble. It couldn't even read the ext3 disc in the machine. It saw a drive there, but couldnt mount it. Mandrake does that automatically. It sees an ntfs drive on the system, and you can mount it, with no hassle. Im going to stop here. Rambling is bad...
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I do have to agree that Luna looks like shit. I can't stand looking at it just like how I can't stand looking at black themes, plain themes and bright colored themes.
I have done all kinds of things to Linux but no matter how hard I try I can't seem to get it to look as nice as I want it to look.
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Any OS that is used somewhere on the desktop is a desktop operating system. Saying that linux is not a desktop OS would be like saying that MSDOS is not a desktop OS. MSDOS had/has millions of desktop users long before there were such things as graphical interfaces. Linux has a graphical interface that is light years ahead of other graphical interfaces that were part of desktop operating systems, such as MSDOS with Windows 3.1. It is also more simplistic than Windows 3.1 was when it was released. Linux is indeed a desktop OS, but it is not yet on the level with Windows XP or Mac OS X for simplicity. I just wish to clear this up. Once again I will not insist that anyone uses linux, however I dont like to be judged as a fool because I dedicate my time to the OS.
[ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: ThePreacher ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Laukev7: Has half Macman's posts:
I don't know exactly why you consider Linux better than BeOS, assuming you have even used the latter. It has the same command line interface as Linux (although not fullscreen), and the configuration files work the same. Many of the major free/open source apps are available for BeOS. I haven't had any more crashes with BeOS than Linux, and as I said, if you really want to you can install X11 and Enlightenment, or any WM available for BeOS.
[ October 21, 2003: Message edited by: Laukev7: Has half Macman's posts ]
Well let me start by asking are there nvidia BeOS drivers available? If so are there ports of popular linux games such as rtcw and quake 3? Is there DVD playing software available? What about DVD burning? Does BeOS support USB 2.0? How frequently are open source applications written for BeOS? Is anyone going to write a 64 bit version of BeOS for the new 64 bit processors from AMD? Truthfully will it be easier or harder for me to find help if I have a problem with BeOS as compared to linux? Can I install bash on BeOS? How many different companies use BeOS in their operations? Is BeOS available for any platform other than x86?
Also when is the last time a new version of BeOS became available? Are new versions with new features released often? Can I use the source code from programs for linux and compile them to work under BeOS, kind of like the binary compatibility FreeBSD offers?
You stated that the gui was superior to X11 in every way. How so? I mean what features does it offer that X11 does not offer? Since i have never experienced a crash with X11 I wont accept that it is more stable. Since X11 is very fast for me, I wont accept that it is faster.
I dont intend to insult with these questions, just help me get a better picture why linux is so inferior.