Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Linux and UNIX => Topic started by: Crunchy(Cracked)Butter on 16 October 2002, 14:30
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Wonderful, just wonderful i feel sorry for the US already. (http://smile.gif)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27636.html (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27636.html)
"Red Hat has struck a small blow against the DMCA, by publishing a security patch which can only be explained fully to people who are not within US jurisdiction. The company's position here seems to be not altogether voluntary - according to a spokesman "it is bizarre, and unfortunately something Red Hat cannot easily do much about," but like it or not Red Hat has been recruited to the campaign to make the DMCA look ridiculous."
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Crunchy(Cracked)Butter ]
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why'd you start this topic? this site is hosted in california which means that, while i now know all about it, nothing can be legally posted about it on this site.
i always wondered about all that shit about not using certain software outside the US. 'who do they think they are?' i once asked myself as i installed a telnet client on my work macintosh, which quite baldly stated that it was free for US citizens to use, but illegal for anybody else...
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I posted this because i wanted to show how the DMCA is effecting people in the US or US territories. Granted nothing can be said about it but thats the point? Its kinda annoying isn't it, which i bet all people involved will be feeling as well.
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i can go and say what i like about it on UK linux sites such as newtolinux.org.uk and yourlinux.co.uk/forums since they are hosted in the UK, and i am in england...
maybe you yanks should go and read those boards, if i were to, for instance post there (and i didn't mean that about the yanks, i realise that canada is part of north america too though...)
There's a thought. If you go to newtolinux.org.uk and post this, are you breaking the law? the site is english, and so are many of its posters (and most of the rest are canadian), so what's the legality there? surely they cannot make it illegal for people in a particular continent to just KNOW something, if they got it from an offshore source? if so, then all the people who made it illegal to know about it would be breaking the law!!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
i can go and say what i like about it on UK linux sites such as newtolinux.org.uk and yourlinux.co.uk/forums since they are hosted in the UK, and i am in england...
maybe you yanks should go and read those boards, if i were to, for instance post there (and i didn't mean that about the yanks, i realise that canada is part of north america too though...)
There's a thought. If you go to newtolinux.org.uk and post this, are you breaking the law? the site is english, and so are many of its posters (and most of the rest are canadian), so what's the legality there? surely they cannot make it illegal for people in a particular continent to just KNOW something, if they got it from an offshore source? if so, then all the people who made it illegal to know about it would be breaking the law!!!
It is illegal to publish stuff like that in the US. This includes via the net, even when on a foreign page by foreign citizens aimed at foreigners. According to the warped view of the US governement that is.
So, if I put info on my page on how to hack, which is AFAIK (but IANAL) perfectly legal here, I may be arrested for doing so unless I somehow restrict US citizens from reading it.
So no, posting on UK boards will not protect you, just read the article for examples.
And yes, those who are making it illegal are pretty much breaking every constitution on the western hemisphere (free speech and stuff). They're US congress though. Try and do a damned thing about it.
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bullshit. the servers are in england, they are posted to by english people, and most of the posters are english. the entire situation is governed by english law, which while it is draconian says nothing about this. let's see them try to prosecute me if i do talk about this online.
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wow, by reading this stuff i feel completly violated by my own government!! I am missing out on precious information and data. after all Knowledge is power....
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Precisely, HPC GUY!
The DMCA, TCPA, DRM, all this isn't about "copyright protection"... it's about "knowledge control".
The entertainment cartels here in the States want to CONTROL KNOWLEDGE. That's been clear to me for some time. Sure it sounds ludicrous, and like some kind of conspiracy theory... but look at the evidence.
It's not some fanatic's ramblings about shadowy events that might point toward something. It's out in the open, in plain sight. They're not making any attempt to hide the fact that they feel they have the right to control all knowledge.
They boil everything down to the lowest common denominator. Creative works become "content". Content isn't appreciated, it's "consumed". This content is then intellectual property, or "ip". They've now semantically removed it from being a work of artistic creation into being a product, then removed it once further into being a non-product, but merely a generalization.
All music is content, and all content is our ip. Music is not music, it's ip.
The TCPA will technologically entrench the concepts of the DMCA. Not only will you be prohibited by law from doing, seeing, and knowing certain things, but now they have a method of actually policing. They can know when you look at anti-DMCA materials, and then they can sick the lawyers on you.
These people aren't just a threat to the United States, either. Once they ruin this place... they're comin' for you! Start now in your own countries while you've got a chance. I fear it's too late for us.
I hear that Canada and England are both beautiful places to live. I should like to move to one or the other someday, so that I can sit back and watch the United States of the Dollar implode.
Fuck the DMCA. Fuck TCPA. Fuck Hollywood.
I'm becoming a bitter young man thanks to them.
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: The Jimmy James / Bob ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
maybe you yanks should go and read those boards, if i were to, for instance post there (and i didn't mean that about the yanks, i realise that canada is part of north america too though...)
this "banned in US" law doesnt apply to canada.
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quote:
why'd you start this topic? this site is hosted in california which means that, while i now know all about it, nothing can be legally posted about it on this site.
Ummmm thats not true. We cant post certain security things here. We are allowed to talk about the stupid law all we want here. We are allowed to link to an article about the law. We are allowed to post links to a security update that is banned in the US as long as we say "US citizens dont go here", But of course there is nothing stopping them from clicking on it anyway.
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i can go and say what i like about it on UK linux sites such as newtolinux.org.uk and yourlinux.co.uk/forums since they are hosted in the UK, and i am in england...
You can post all you want about it here too!!!!! Just dont post the *certain* security updates that are illegal in the US... Unless a US citizen found the security flaw.
quote:
It is illegal to publish stuff like that in the US. This includes via the net, even when on a foreign page by foreign citizens aimed at foreigners. According to the warped view of the US governement that is.
So, if I put info on my page on how to hack, which is AFAIK (but IANAL) perfectly legal here, I may be arrested for doing so unless I somehow restrict US citizens from reading it.
the way red hat did it was just saying that US citizens aren't allowed to read it....its like putting "you must be 18" on the front page of porn sites, its not really stopping anyone but law-abiding citizens.
well.... i figure that the US is trying to help MS out by getting all their competition to move to different countries. Soon US wont be able to use Linux legally if they make it so that you *must* have that processor with the stuff in it (arent i descriptive).
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No matter how much it hurts the US, it is a small known fact that they do not police the world and here is the problem and the heart of the issue.
Calum is right in what he is saying, he can do whatever he wants in the UK because the US gov does not have the power to arrest him. Sure they (the US gov) could whine to the UK gov but they would reply saying he isn't breaking any english or european laws (yet) so they cannot do anything.
Pity this didn't work for a certain person working for a legit company creating legit products for the blind when reverse engineering an Adobe product outside US soil in another country where it IS legal but thats another story and the reason why its being discussed right now.
Thats also why Redhat have pulled this particular stunt as well, they are pointing out an error in a law which hampers the US but benefits the rest of the world.
The Jimmy James / Bob: I wouldn't bother coming to England anyway, the UK is gonna fuck itself into a hybrid of european policies and american style ideals. I'm already making plans to leave this dump. The EU are a fucking nightmare and couldn't organise a pissup in a brewey never mind sort out any decent legislation with regard to technology and the internet, god at one point they wanted to make it illegal for the net to even exist because they wanted to ban copying (little did they know that thats how the net works). You only have to look at Greece as an example to NOT understand technology and Sweden for soon to be trying to ban deep linking on websites.
The best place to go where polictians have at least an idea and a clue to what is going on is New Zealand or Australia, hell even some South American countries and a former soviet country are getting it right these days.
Don't go to the UK, its fucking pants, go elsewhere.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
bullshit. the servers are in england, they are posted to by english people, and most of the posters are english. the entire situation is governed by english law, which while it is draconian says nothing about this. let's see them try to prosecute me if i do talk about this online.
*read* *the* *article*.
Sure, *discussing* the DMCA is fine. Posting anything in violation of the DMCA is *not*. You can go on and say "let's see them try..." but fact is THAT ALREADY HAPPENED.
Of course, it is far from certain that the US gov will *do* anything if anyone talks about what a security patch does (and, more precicely, what the original flaw was). However, posting info on that original flaw can count as a copyright circumvention technology (or whatever), even when only ment to show what is *fixed*.
The internet, and jurisdiction *on* the internet is a tough point in law these days. Common sense may learn that a citizen in country X, posting information from himself on a country-X-server not specifically targeted to any country should fall under country X's jurisdiction, but the law is uncertain of this, since the information is published in country Y, where it is illegal.
Let's just hope the US doesn't set a precedent - I don't want to be hunted down by the Chinese governement from publishing "capitalist propaganda", or by some fundamentalistic country (UK for example - isn't there a blasphemy law still in place?) for violating their laws.
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So lets just say I am from Australia or the UK or something, where would I go to look this stuff up? I know I could go to any place really, but I don't want any psychological tricks into making me believe the wrong thing. (Not that I am susceptible to such tricks), what's a good source? Or is the security update not all that usefull to me? (RH7.3)
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Stryker ]
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I don't really think it is important in all reality, they are just following the bullshit law, its not as thought they are gonna do you for it is it?
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Consider this, it's illegal, but will the local police go through the trouble of enforcing such a law? Will the government even bother tracking you down, unless you do something really big? Even if your charged, would you get in much trouble?
I'd say the DMCA is a scare tactic, as is the standard anti-piracy laws.
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Just a question, is it hard to gain Canadian citizenship? Australian?
V
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quote:
Originally posted by lazygamer:
Consider this, it's illegal, but will the local police go through the trouble of enforcing such a law? Will the government even bother tracking you down, unless you do something really big? Even if your charged, would you get in much trouble?
I'd say the DMCA is a scare tactic, as is the standard anti-piracy laws.
I agree. How the fuck will they track and prosecute everyone who does something? I did things I won't post, and have I gotten in trouble? No.
The DCMA is bullshit, and I've sent quite a few letters to quite a few people in congress. My last letter was quite nasty.
I said that if the congressmen (excuse the sexism) are representatives for the people, then why is this stuff being created? Why? For the corporations. The United States Congress is completely for doing the biddings of the corporations. And I resent that heavily.
I have no problem viewing info I shouldn't. Who hasn't at some point?
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: The_Muffin_Man/B0b ]
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I think we want more citizens here in Aussieland, the government keeps running "If you're a permanent resident, now is a great time to gain citizenship!" ads. And what is this DMCA thing? Maybe I've been living under a rock.
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Chuck Schumer's website is down, don't try sending him anything :D
Wait a sec...isn't source code legal (It falls under a bunch of the following)? Check this out:
quote:
Copyright Office Summary December 1998 Page 5
The broadest of these exceptions, section 1201(a)(1)(B)-(E), establishes an
ongoing administrative rule-making proceeding to evaluate the impact of the
prohibition against the act of circumventing such access-control measures. This
conduct prohibition does not take effect for two years. Once it does, it is subject to
an exception for users of a work which is in a particular class of works if they are or are
likely to be adversely affected by virtue of the prohibition in making noninfringing uses.
The applicability of the exemption is determined through a periodic rulemaking by the
Librarian of Congress, on the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, who is
to consult with the Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Communications and
Information.
The six additional exceptions are as follows:
1. Nonprofit library, archive and educational institution exception
(section 1201(d)). The prohibition on the act of circumvention of
access control measures is subject to an exception that permits
nonprofit libraries, archives and educational institutions to circumvent
solely for the purpose of making a good faith determination as to
whether they wish to obtain authorized access to the work.
2. Reverse engineering (section 1201(f)). This exception permits
circumvention, and the development of technological means for such
circumvention, by a person who has lawfully obtained a right to use a
copy of a computer program for the sole purpose of identifying and
analyzing elements of the program necessary to achieve interoperability
with other programs, to the extent that such acts are permitted under
copyright law.
3. Encryption research (section 1201(g)). An exception for encryption
research permits circumvention of access control measures, and the
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998
development of the technological means to do so, in order to identify
flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption technologies.
4. Protection of minors (section 1201(h)). This exception allows a court
applying the prohibition to a component or part to consider the
necessity for its incorporation in technology that prevents access of
minors to material on the Internet.
5. Personal privacy (section 1201(i)). This exception permits circumvention
when the technological measure, or the work it protects, is capable
of collecting or disseminating personally identifying information about
the online activities of a natural person.
6. Security testing (section 1201(j)). This exception permits circumvention
of access control measures, and the development of technological
means for such circumvention, for the purpose of testing the security
of a computer, computer system or computer network, with the
authorization of its owner or operator.
Got this from
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/legislation/dmca.pdf (http://www.loc.gov/copyright/legislation/dmca.pdf)
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: The_Muffin_Man/B0b ]
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I know two words that would help put an end to it all... to DRM, TCPA, the DMCA... all of it.
Tar
the other word...
Feather
Combine them with a healthy dose of applying them to people that support said bullshit. The message would be clear, would be understood, and it would usher in a new era of Government for the people by the people.
Thanks to the "old guard" of the 1950s and 1960s that let the Gov't take over without question. Look what they've turned into.
MY WORST FUCKING ENEMY.
It's really disgusting.
I think someone already asked... but how hard *is* it to become a Canadian citizen? I do believe I could take pride in saying I'm a Canadian.
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DC, for your information i did read the article. do you seriously think i go shooting off my mouth about something without reading the source material beforehand? what sort of moron do you think i am?
Master of reality, you seem to think i can say what i like about this, do you? even though the site is in the US. well according to the article: quote:
Got that? In some instances at least, the very act of explaining what has been fixed by a security patch could be construed as explaining how the security of a product could be breached, and hence could be viewed as a breach of the DMCA.
so. heads still in the sand? keep looking at your feet guys, while the rest of the world laps you.
people in glass houses should not throw stones.
re: australian citizenship, i will have to marry my australian fiance (luckily that is the plan!) in order to get it. australia seems to be quite tight about that sort of thing these days. Also, doesn't the USA get shitty if you adopt another nationality? i was under the impression that you could not hold a dual nationality where one of your nationalities was US citizen, is this correct?
[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
DC, for your information i did read the article. do you seriously think i go shooting off my mouth about something without reading the source material beforehand? what sort of moron do you think i am?
Happens quite a lot actually.
And my apologies - that what I was talking about wasn't actually on that page. http://www.thefreeworld.net/faq.php (http://www.thefreeworld.net/faq.php) , one of the links mentioned, told that story.
A Russian guy posting stuff on Russian servers that was not illegal was ARRESTED. Germans posting legal stuff on German servers are being persecuted.
Sure, you can avoid it - just don't ever travel to the US again in your life. That is unless they manage to get you extradited, in which case you're toast.
Lazygamer and Muffin: they may not go after everyone, but they *can* go after you if they want to, pretty much at their desires.