Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Linux and UNIX => Topic started by: pkd_lives on 9 October 2002, 04:06
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Well I managed to resurect my PC once more - god this is getting insane, nobody breathe now. And I continue my search for a comp. I have contaacted various companies about getting a laptop with Linux, via e-mail.
Dell were the ONLY ones to reply to me - So F*** you HP and Sony. Best Buy and CompUSA will not even come over and ask me if I need assistance - I think they see the knowledge in my eyes.
Dell sent me support lists for Gnome and RH, et. al. I reminded them I was buying not needing service. They sent me back a contact number and said they could not help here but sales by phone should be my point of contact.
I phoned Dell and they stated they CANNOT sell me a system without a M$ Operating System on it. Well I know this, but I'm still gonna ask.
So I am wondering to myself. They can sell business machines can't they? well is there a minimum quantity and can I buy one for my home use? and just say it's for business. I mean in some ways it will be, but is there a legal definition for business and home?
Edit: Scratch that, Dell only offer it on Servers. I have now searched the Dell site pretty conclusivly, and the Linux page does not even exist for home or small business.
[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: pkd ]
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Well you know how it goes. I think though that there are some sites out there somewhere (don't remember the links sorry) that sell laptops and PCs with Linux preinstalled (http://smile.gif) . However, if you want to buy a new one then I would suggest that you disagree with the terms of the EULA, return Windows and get a refund which could be a troublesome and painful procedure. Anyway I think that you'll figure it out and make a good buy (http://smile.gif)
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So exactly how was it again that Microsoft got to 97% market share? It was because of the quality of the product right? (http://smile.gif) Seems to me that when you are forced to buy Windows with your desktop PC then there is little doubt that they would have 97% of the market.
Good thing I know how to build my own equipment. It's too much of a pain and the ass for most people. Actually in the amount of time I waste building a PC I could have paid for a copy of Windows, but it's the point of the matter.
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How did you build your lappy?
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walmart sells computers with linux preloaded (mandrake)
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Want a computer (desktop or laptop) w/ Linux?
http://www.qlilinux.com/ (http://www.qlilinux.com/)
Edit: Oooh they sell Athlon MP systems! Shweet!
http://www.kachinatech.com/ (http://www.kachinatech.com/)
Note: I have not bought from these people, so I recommend that you look them up in the BBB.org database to check for problems. I recommend doing this with any new person you buy from. Always buy with a major credit card if possible.
[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: The_Muffin_Man/B0b ]
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quote:
Originally posted by TheQuirk:
How did you build your lappy?
I didn't say it was the *lightest* or *smallest* laptop in the world. In fact it looks a lot like a desktop with a 19" monitor attached. It's actually quite difficult to keep the whole rig on your lap and type at the same time. (http://smile.gif)
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Thanks guys.
I know a lot of those sites, I have been hunting around. Trouble is I got burnt last buy and I really want to buy from someone with a proven track record. Although that may not be an option. And if not then fine I'll go with one of those little firms.
I would build my own, but building laptops is awkward, and as my hardware is about to crash and burn as a whole this is an ideal time to upgrade. I roommate so saving the space would be good.
I think we should all phone up and keep pestering these companies. They will only change when the market is truly percieved. I'm gonna try some other companies. And i'm gonna walk into CompUSA with $1500 in cash and say I want a commputer with No M$ stuff, and I don't want to pay for the M$ stuff, and are you going to sell it to me. If they refuse hard currency then I'll know it's time to talk small guy in the basement, or I'll find a second hand job and do it myself.
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Dood...like I said...ALWAYS check with the BBB and use a major credit card. I've never been frauded out. So, to prevent you from having problems, I looked them up for you. Now you have no excuse :D
QliTech's "Track record"
http://www.desmoines.bbb.org/commonreport.html?compid=18001242 (http://www.desmoines.bbb.org/commonreport.html?compid=18001242)
I can't find any information on "Kachina Technologies". The BBB has no such record, the phone number turns up nil, and they list a PO Box as an address...very sketchy indeed.
Do your homework before you buy!
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quote:
Actually in the amount of time I waste building a PC I could have paid for a copy of Windows, but it's the point of the matter.
I wouldn't call it wasted time, It's the most fun I've ever had! :D
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quote:
Originally posted by RudeCat7:
I wouldn't call it wasted time, It's the most fun I've ever had! :D
Maybe the first 8 or 10 times it's fun but it gets old after that. (http://smile.gif)
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Some more companies:
Penguin Computing. Their website:
http://penguincomputing.com/ (http://penguincomputing.com/)
BBB info:
None found. They do give local phone numbers, and a street address. Not to mention tech support.
Here's a whole list of dealers.
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Hardware/Systems/Linux/ (http://dmoz.org/Computers/Hardware/Systems/Linux/)
Have phun!
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I have actually bought a few rack servers from Penguin Computing. But they don't sell laptops to my knowlege (which I believe he was after and I was scolded about). (http://smile.gif)
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yes.. i dont think dell will sell laptops with no OS.. on paper...
you can order desktops with FreeDOS if you insist and complain and yell and scream... though most of the phone people do not know this.. and i dont know if it officailly applies to dell laptops. you might mention it and try... it doesnt add cost and you can just load linux after you get it.
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I would telephone the dealer and ask for a system and say you don't want windows because you don't know how to use it, you use linux only, ever have and ever will.
Then point out that you wouldn't pay for something you don't want and neither would he.
Smarttalk the guy by saying that you would return the laptop/desktop anyway if it came with windows because you would disagree with the EULA so to save some time (for their sake) just say "give me the laptop with no MS and i won't have to waste top spec hardware because i would be returning it and pissing you guys around". Plus since there is no software on the machine i want my $100 or so discount on that machine.
If they bullshit you that they have an agreement with MS for selling software then kindly point out that the agreement doesn't bother you because you never made an agreement and you should get what you want. In the EULA it does say something like this:
"If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, PC Manufacturer and Microsoft are unwilling to license the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to you. In such event, you may not use or copy the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, and you should promptly contact PC Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused products(s) for a refund.
There you go, its right there, even MS says you CAN do it, wuote it and tell him, so if he is a good boy you get what you want if he doesn't behave and tricks you then fuck him with paperwork because you gotta return the machine and you are in your rights to refuse this product.
I got a link for a guy who did it: http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html (http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html)
If they still say no then say you are going to speak to the federal trade commission.
Then speak to IBM maybe they will do it.
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this is fine in theory, and so on, but once you give them your credit card details and they charge you for 1x laptop and 1x shitty operating system, then it's you who is being fucked around trying to get your money back. By even booting the machine into windows you are agreeing to the EULA. And to know this, you must boot into windows so you can read the EULA, am i right?
so do explain implicitly to them on the phone that fobbing you off with windows will do nobody any good, but DO NOT give them a chance to charge you for m$windows, that's my advice.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
this is fine in theory, and so on, but once you give them your credit card details and they charge you for 1x laptop and 1x shitty operating system, then it's you who is being fucked around trying to get your money back. By even booting the machine into windows you are agreeing to the EULA. And to know this, you must boot into windows so you can read the EULA, am i right?
so do explain implicitly to them on the phone that fobbing you off with windows will do nobody any good, but DO NOT give them a chance to charge you for m$windows, that's my advice.
Ding - you squared that nail right up...and I'm blowed if you did not go and hit it smack straight where it needed to go.
My G/F me, told me I'm just doing this for the Drama, and a principle, and I said damn right I am.
Void, I never gave you shit, I actually thought you might have built a laptop - well never said I was the brightest lamp.
Muffin - Thanks for the Links. Trouble is two fold. I was burnt last time when the Manufacturer went Belly up a month after I brought the machine. Left me high and dry with no official copies of the software I had installed. I lost my warranty, which would have been useful for my MOBO went 11 months in. And I don't have a CC, I hate them, cash/cheque and out the door is my prefered method, that's why I'm very careful, but thanks for the BBB link, I may get a charge card though.
I want to know more about the freedos thing. Is it a M$ operating system, and is it free? I don't care if it will just bring up a shell, and does not support any of the hardware, when I get it it's getting RH, or somesuch.
[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: pkd ]
Edit : Arrgghhh. FreeDOS is not M$ so I don't think I can ask for this. Anyone know different?
[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: pkd ]
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You would know if you are being fucked over the phone before you give them the credit card because they have to quote the price to you so that there is an agreement of sorts.
So you will know whether you are getting charged for the hardware and the "shitty operating system".
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When I called Dell I tried to open up a negotiation dialogue. I don't want M$, so give me one with no M$, or with a free distribution OS.
They did not bite. But I am wondering maybe I can get Dos 1.0, maybe for a $1. If that works then fine. But somehow I don't think they will.
You see it is not only the OS, these comps come with specific software. Such as Norton - oh yeah that I need. And I don't need any of it. So to my mind of thinking a non-OS computer should be $300 USD cheaper. Does anyone work for a computer reseller, and can they offer pointers here.
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quote:
Originally posted by pkd:
Void, I never gave you shit, I actually thought you might have built a laptop - well never said I was the brightest lamp.
I should have put a smiley at the end of my message because I was smiling when I wrote it. I was dumb for forgetting the machine in question was a laptop. Still smiling..
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Well bad news from Gateway (I don't really want one of them). But it's cool you can chat with them on-line. Go and try it out at gateway.com. No waiting for e-mails - which HP and Sony still have not replied to.
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quote:
Originally posted by pkd:
Well bad news from Gateway (I don't really want one of them). But it's cool you can chat with them on-line. Go and try it out at gateway.com.
"chatting"!
Bah, i cannot because i live outside the US. How shit! Anyway i could still fill in the service report so i told them what:
Er like i couldn't chat with them just because i live outside the US. Thas means i cannot get a Gateway on import!"
Not that i would mind you.
[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Crunchy(Cracked)Butter ]
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quote:
Originally posted by pkd:
My G/F me, told me I'm just doing this for the Drama, and a principle, and I said damn right I am.
and for the several hundred bucks you stand to lose.
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And I don't have a CC, I hate them, cash/cheque and out the door is my prefered method, that's why I'm very careful,
a man after my own heart!
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I want to know more about the freedos thing. Is it a M$ operating system,
NO! Not on yer nellie! it is a GPLd project that you can find available on sourceforge.net quote:
and is it free?
yes. quote:
I don't care if it will just bring up a shell, and does not support any of the hardware, when I get it it's getting RH, or somesuch.
i spent a few days trying to install freedos, which was fun, but when it repeatedly failed to install after i had downloaded a few different distros/versions of it, i gave up. not even a command prompt, although it supposedly boasts its own GUI, and unofficially runs m$windows. quote:
Arrgghhh. FreeDOS is not M$ so I don't think I can ask for this. Anyone know different?
I heard that wal-mart were selling PCs with freedos when M$ said they could not sell PCs with NO OS if they also sold PCs with windows. Apparently M$ can no longer demand that resellers only put windows on their machines, so now they demand that resellers HAVE to include an 'operating system' with every PC.
Hey, did you check out wal-mart? they supposedly sell lindows, windows xp and freedos desktops, maybe they will do you a laptop?
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Sony has a chat thing too, you know.
http://sonystyle.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/sonystyle.cfg/php/enduser/live.php (http://sonystyle.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/sonystyle.cfg/php/enduser/live.php)
Tell us the results..I'd like to know.
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Dell Precision workstations with Linux:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/minicat_precn_340l.htm (http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/minicat_precn_340l.htm)
Notice the lack of a "Pick a Windows" and "Pick some shitty M$ software"?
No minimum purchase required that they noted. Enjoy!
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Actually I didn't notice. I selected "configure" system and they only show Windows XP. But they do say they offer RedHat 7.3 on certain systems here:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/learnmore/learnmore_os_linux.htm (http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/learnmore/learnmore_os_linux.htm)
Also notice on the details page at that URL that Dells position of offering RedHat is to help people move to Dell hardware from the UNIX platform and not from Windows. Can you say "we don't want to step on the toes of the big bad wolf"?
[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]
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Zombie, thanks for the link, I found a company called powernotebooks that looks good, and strange though it seems netegg had the BBB label at the bottom of their site.
Muffin, thanks but the Sony site keeps trying to runa temporary Java from sony, that does not plug in to my system.
Muffin / Void, Cheers for continuing the search but the only Linux systems available are servers, however they conveniently note that the Intel 4 M will run Linux. And those base systems are desktops, and if you continue to hunt you will find that eventually you are asked to configure W2K, XP home or business.
Okay my fucking shackles are up. This is pissing me off. But I will end up paying more for hardware by buying from some small unproven business. I have a temporary reprieve for I'm getting a few free parts for this old bucket.
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Really? Not what I'm seeing...
(http://www.akgames.net:8000/Downloads/Files/Personal/DellLinux.bmp)
EDIT: DOOD: It's the workstations. Follow the link above...they exist...
Void: I was pointing you at the 340L's. The lower end Linux workstations.
[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: The_Muffin_Man/B0b ]
[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: The_Muffin_Man/B0b ]
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I gotcha. If you hit "continue" it takes you here:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp?customer_id=04&keycode=6W463&order_code=WS340TL (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp?customer_id=04&keycode=6W463&order_code=WS340TL)
Which does show RedHat installed. What confused me is it didn't show it on the page you linked to. And at the bottom of the page you linked to it said:
Dell PCs use Genuine Microsoft Windows.
And if I clicked the Click Here (http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/offers/specials_3x_precn_ws340_mcrec.htm) link it showed XP as the only OS. I should have clicked the "Continue" link near the bottom of the page.
My mistake.
Now, is that the lowest end machine they sell Linux on? Starting at $1377??? That pisses me off. What if I want a low end dell but run Linux on it? I do buy Dell Servers with RedHat 7.3 installed but it really sucks that they still won't sell me a laptop without buying a copy of XP crap..
[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]
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Zombie, hit reload when you have problems. A lot of times the proxy or your computer will cache the page, and reload forces it to get an updated version.
I don't know why he doesn't build his own either. Tigerdirect.com has some seriously low-price stuff for sale. I built a higher end computer with parts I bought from there for around $500...now I want to build a server for $250. I'm damn close, except for the hard drive...
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quote:
Originally posted by Zombie9920:
I'm going to start disabling the proxy when I'm not at this site. It sucks having to use a proxy to view this site, but I think my ISP has the fuckmicrosoft domain blocked or the webmaster might've configured his computer to block my real IP from connecting(I don't know why he would do that though).
A traceroute will tell the tale...
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the webmaster didnt say anything about disabling anyones account except for the secrective cunt a while back.
traceroute??? tale??? in accordance with the prophecy???
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i didnt see the option on Dells web site. But to certain businesses.. and Dell premier partner/resellers, i know.. for a fact.. Dell will ship Dell Precision Workstation Moblie M50s (Laptop) with Redhat and not windows. Wether youll be able to talk to anyone that will do it for you is uncertain.
Dell does huge volume.. they dont care about indivudual users to waste their time with your OS requests.. theyll just choose not to sell to you. But when a large company or the government, who spends millions a month to Dell ask for something.. they get it much easier.
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quote:
Originally posted by Zombie9920:
When you are trying to look up how reliable the reseller is, don't do it through BBB, do it through http://www.resellerratings.com (http://www.resellerratings.com) because they have a much larger database.
while i am sure that you are actually right, simply the fact that they have a larger database is not good enough to say they are a better way to find out how reliable a reseller is. Say, for instance, that bbb had 600 people on their database and resellerratings had 3000, but lets imagine that there are actually only 600 reputable resellers, this means that the one with the larger database would have a huge chance of recommending a DISreputable reseller, while the bbb service may well have entirely only good ones.
As i say, no criticism to you, i am sure you are correct, and i will say i know nothing about how to conduct business online, just pointing out a logical hitch that i spotted.
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Thanks muffin, I made the same mistake as void.
I would build my own if it was a desktop I was getting. I want a laptop.
Building your own is easy, and can be lots cheaper, although I have found that when you look into this option you often decide you want the superior hardware, and thus spend more.
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You actually can build your own lappy. Go here: https://www.casedepot.com/index-s.html (https://www.casedepot.com/index-s.html) then click "Portable Cases" on the right side menu, and then choose an screen size.
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Actually those are portables, not laptops. I suppose you could put a portable on your lap but it certainly would not be comfortable. (http://smile.gif)
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I don't know about you but those workstations seem really high considering what you get for it.
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Yeah, they do...the Winblows ones are quite a few bucks cheaper...how bizarre :confused:
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It's not bizzare at all. Think about it. It is in Dell's best interest to serve their master or the master will pull the plug.
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it'll be a 'we regret to inform you' reply.
As you know, if you have never booted into the system then you are still entitled to a refund.
also: quote:
Dear Microsoft,
!!! haw haw haw!!! very funny!
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quote:
You actually can build your own lappy. Go here: https://www.casedepot.com/index-s.html (https://www.casedepot.com/index-s.html) then click "Portable Cases" on the right side menu, and then choose an screen size
Those portables Rule! But they are too expensive, because I usually build a kick ass system for $500.00
NewEgg.com (http://newegg.com) is THE best online component source! check out the refurb motherboards, cheap! (http://smile.gif)
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Here's an interesting site I just ran across:
http://www.windowsrefund.net/ (http://www.windowsrefund.net/)
But if you don't want to mess with Windows, here's a notebook site where you can get a non-Windows laptop:
http://www.powernotebooks.com/ (http://www.powernotebooks.com/)
[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]
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Right no link, but I went to 'their' website (i will not link - I feel dirty enough' and entered refund. And got the following (everything else was for M$ money).
This is what I got.
quote:
Microsoft North American Retail Product Returns
All North American retail Microsoft software comes with a 30-day, money back guarantee. Retail products can most easily be returned through the retailer where the product was purchased or directly to Microsoft.
Product Return Guidelines:
* Return the product within 30 days of purchase date
* Provide a copy of Proof of Purchase (receipt, credit card statement or cancelled check)
* Provide a complete street address (No PO Boxes) and telephone number
* Uninstall the software product from your computer and any storage devices, delete any backup copies
* Include all related media and manuals
* Supply the name and location of the retailer where the product was purchased
* Please include a brief statement as to why you wish to return the product for a refund
* Send product, the original product packaging and all related materials via traceable means (i.e., FedEx, UPS, Airborne, certified and insured US mail)
Not eligible for refund through the North American Retail Product Returns
* Product preloaded on a personal PC (contact the PC manufacturer)
* Product obtained through volume licensing or subscription (Please check with your reseller/distributor for their return policy)
* Product acquired for free via electronic distribution
* Product purchased through electronic software distribution via an on-line software vendor (product returns are handled by the on-line software vendor)
* Reseller/Retailer and Contractor product returns (Please coordinate your returns request with your Authorized Microsoft Distributor)
* Product obtained as Not For Resale Product
All validated returns will be processed within 2-4 weeks once the product is received by the Return Center. Failure to include all the information required could result in the refund being delayed or denied.
Questions: 1-888-673-8624
1-877-673-8889 (TTY Line)
SHIPPING ADDRESS FOR RETURNS in the United States:
Microsoft Product Returns Program
2992 Alvarado Street Suite N
San Leandro, CA 94577
SHIPPING ADDRESS FOR RETURNS in Canada:
Microsoft Product Returns Program
6200 Dixie Road Unit # 17
Mississauga, Ontario
Canada L5T2E1
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very important: 2 points.
on the list of refunds requests that are ineligible, the first one shows that if windows is preinstalled, you are not eligible for a refund. Micro4oft says talk to Dell, and you know that Dell say talk to Microsoft. both are effectively saying 'talk to the hand'. The last one on that list shows that 'not for resale' products are not eligible. Qhave you ever heard of a copy of windows that is allowed to be resold? no. there is no such thing. this refund policy is hot air that has been cooked up for legal reasons and nothing more.
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Well if one cannot buy a pc without windows then there is nothing wrong with waiting for a second hand one or something that is refurbished. Then put linux on it or find somebody who sells laptops and pcs with nothing on it or linux.
I'm surprised IBM doesn't put linux boxes out, if they do it for servers and mainfrmaes why not the smaller stuff? Or have they also signed a stupid agreement allowing them to only preload windows as well?
Then again if Sun pulled its finger out it could find ppl coming to its doors if they sold kits with linux installed, i know i would buy one. Shit i tried to buy like the ONLY linux web tablet a few days ago only to find they are sold out already! They were only