Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => macOS => Topic started by: psyjax on 7 November 2002, 22:23
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Lately I have been noting a decidedly anti-OSX slant from forum regulars. Arguments saying that it isn't customizable enugh, isn't true open source etc.
This is all garbage. OSX is fully customizable just as any UNIX. You have full access to the Darwin underlayer and can mess with it all you want. The Aqua GUI is also very pourus and there are various ways to customize it to your likeing. Apple includes many development tools for OSX ranging from the gcc compilers to the wonderfull Developer Tools sweet.
OSX is potentialy as good as any UNIX, and is surely the BEST desktop UNIX around. Mac users and Linux/*NIX users are on the same teem here and I don't think we should be trashing each other.
But none the less, if you have some kind of Beef with OSX, or any other OS for that matter, at least try to make a valid point with substance. Most of the stuff I have seen tossed around are kind of like half assed arguments and silly OSX sux type crap.
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i agree. x11's anti mac comments are a bit dumb, but i think he is just trying to stir up some shit.
Anyway MacOSX is not open source. it is not Free software. it is misleading to say that this is not true. It is true. OSX may be stable, customisable, it may run like a scalded hyena on heat in a learjet, it may do the dishes, feed the cat and be great in bed but it is NOT Free software (free as in freedom, in case zombie or his ilk are reading this).
I have not used MacOSX, but i do take exception to a) misleading statements about its components and/or licence agreement and b) claims by its users that other systems are somehow inferior. This last is not a dig at you or anybody however i think that it is sometimes easy for users of particular type of software to get a little bit too far up their own arse. That includes me, it includes everybody. How we can be so shallow about something like software is beyond me. Freedom of speech however, now there's something worth fighting about...
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But you have to cut Apple some slack... if they made OS X open source then nobody would have a reason to buy their computers.
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But if Apple made their computers with faster IBM processors rather than cheesy Motorola ones, then more people would have a reason to buy their computers!
I can't afford to shell out 3 grand for a dual 1.25GHz G4 when I could build a comparable or faster PC for less.
As for OS X, I can't say it's technologically better or worse than any other UNIX. Sure, Quartz is many times better than X11, but... it's slow as shit. It's NOT open source, which is an issue that's becoming more and more important to me.
And it honestly, just doesn't live up to expectations. It works, yeah, but the devil is in the details, and they suck. Windows networking is a joke. I tried to share files with Windows users with no luck. No luck connecting to them, either.
Application stability is decreasing. iChat can't even start, and when it does, it won't stay connected to the crappy ass network. AIM has the same problem. The problem doesn't exist in OS 9, or Windows, or Linux.
I'm not puttin' it down, but I'm certainly not gonna say it's the greatest thing they've ever made. I, for one, would much rather have had Copland.
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I really don't understand where this anti-OS X sentiment comes from. OS X IS the best Operating System I have ever used! Let me explain why:
A) It comes with virtually every piece of software one might need and even more. Some examples: AppleWorks, iTunes, iMovies, iPhoto, QuickTime and the list goes on and on.
B) It's easy as hell to use. Even a 10yr old can use OS X.
C) Before you pull the "idiot proof" argument from your sleeve, let me say that you can also work from the shell and directly from Darwin just like in any other *NIX like variant!
D) It's legendary stable. Even my Linux boxes where not that stable. Come on, I've been using it for two months and have never experienced a system crash! I had some applications crashing on me but after really heavy use I assure you.
E) It is virtually the most secure Operating System, along with Linux and more than Linux, out there.
F) Quartz is the most beautiful graphics layer out there and do not dare to disagree! In other words OS X is as eye candy as an OS can get.
G) It is configurable beyond any point, like Linux.
etc etc etc.
Of course there still are some things to be improved like the speed for instance. But come on, can you really compare OS X 10.0.0 to Jaguar? I don't think so. :D
Oh, and Jimmy James you have disappointed me a lot. I realise that you are nostalgic of the good old Apple but how can a company survive when they keep a low profile? That was Apple's problem all those years and that's why this more agressive approach of theirs will finally prove correct in the end. ;)
[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Panos ]
[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Panos ]
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Frankly OS X has so much eye candy that it gives me a sickly feeling, kind of like eating a whole roll of chewy Spree. It's too busy for my tastes.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Jimmy James X 10.3.6 / Bob:
But if Apple made their computers with faster IBM processors rather than cheesy Motorola ones, then more people would have a reason to buy their computers!
I can't afford to shell out 3 grand for a dual 1.25GHz G4 when I could build a comparable or faster PC for less.
I agree with this up to a point. I still think Mac's are worth the money, but Moto does suck ass.
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As for OS X, I can't say it's technologically better or worse than any other UNIX. Sure, Quartz is many times better than X11, but... it's slow as shit. It's NOT open source, which is an issue that's becoming more and more important to me.
Slow as shit!!! Jezus, what the hell are you on? Jag is just as snappy as OS9 on my dual 800, and the fact that it isn't open source makes no diffrence. It fucking rocks, and it's easy to programm for and customize to your likeing. If you don't like it, by all means run X11 :D
That's what's great about OSX. Pretty soon you can have KDE on it, with all it's fetures. You can have GNOME etc. Want open source only, dump aqua run gnome and X11 over darwin instead. This Quarz/Aqua ain't open source BS is a non-argument IMHO.
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And it honestly, just doesn't live up to expectations. It works, yeah, but the devil is in the details, and they suck. Windows networking is a joke. I tried to share files with Windows users with no luck. No luck connecting to them, either.
I have had no problems with windows networking. Rondevouz work's flawlessly and I transfer files all over the school network to all maner of OS's. No problem. Maybe it was WINDOZE that had the problem not OSX. I think Windoze is more likely to be the culptit, but that's just me (http://tongue.gif) .
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Application stability is decreasing. iChat can't even start, and when it does, it won't stay connected to the crappy ass network. AIM has the same problem. The problem doesn't exist in OS 9, or Windows, or Linux.
AIM work's flawlessly for me, but I can sorta sympathize with the iChat thing. It's not the network issue, but something else. Somehow or other I corrupted my copy of iChat and wanted to re-install, the fucking install CD's have nearly no custamizable instalation options! You can't just select an aspect of the OS, it's all or nothing. Now that is fucked up, every MAC OS up to 10.1 had totall installer customizability.
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I'm not puttin' it down, but I'm certainly not gonna say it's the greatest thing they've ever made. I, for one, would much rather have had Copland.
Gotta disagree, it's the greatest. Copland would have still crashed.
Ok, here is my experience with OSX. Never crashes, is stable as hell, can do anything you throw at it even with limeted system resources!!! You can get a 233Mhz iMac to run ton's of programms that are totaly memory intensive and actually have it work! That's impressive, that's TRUE multi-tasking and dynamic memory management.
It IS UNIX, a great deal of the OS is open source. There is a gigantic library of software from the *NIX realm that can be run in OSX, there is also an evergrowing library of shareware/freeware for OSX.
Quartz is an amazing graphics engine that outdoes QuickDraw in every respect. It's slower only if you have a slow machine, in which case you shoulden't be complaining. Also, don't say this is unecisary forced upgradeing since you don't have to run OSX at all, stick to 9. If you wan't *NIX run Darwin with X11 or better yet, Linux.
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Psyjax!! I'm not putting X down. I'm simply saying that it's not everything Steve's marketers say. It's the best OS I've ever used, too. But they could still improve it in many ways.
Panos, I don't want Apple to keep a low profile! I want just the opposite. I want 'em to be like they were in the late 80s. In your face, not afraid to insult the competition. They had beige Macs because it wasn't the outside that people cared about (even though they were BETTER beige boxes) it was the fact that inside the beige Mac was a DOS killer. And it was that way for years. I miss Apple back when my dad still used Macs. Back when he had an SE/30 for civil engineering work. Apple knew they were badass, and showed it. They also had an image. They were Apple, the company that started the whole personal computer revolution, and they were a company that was made of tinkerers, artists, hackers, code gods, and some sharp businessmen. You had heroes like Bill Atkinson, Jef Raskin, Woz, and you could look at some part of the Mac or the system software and know that this man did it. Now, they're another homogonized corporation, with a CEO as a faceman. He might be a CEO with a vision, but he's still just another CEO. Steve was much better as being a guy who led projects and drove the troops.
As for the networking, it's wierd. I'd put equal blame on OS X and my college's sorry excuse for a network. I find dialup to be many times more reliable and... faster. Our network is a piece of shit. iChat never gave me any network trouble when I was on dialup, but neither it nor AIM want to stay connected. But now iChat crashes, too =^( And that sucks, 'cos I like iChat!
The Windows networking... I don't know. I plugged into a hub with three other XP boxes. instantly they saw each other and they were swapping files. I never got them to see me, and I never saw them.
And Quartz, yeah, it's better than QuickDraw. Windows XP's GDI is better than QuickDraw. But Quartz will be sluggish and a hog until we see 5-th generation 64-bit PPCs. Quartz Extreme goes a long way toward fixing that, but look at who got left out in the cold... Rage graphics users. Thanks ATI, for not fixing the power-of-2 texture bug.
As for Jaguar being "as fast" as 9. Perhaps. Apps run faster than they did in 9. I saw that the first time I used OS X. But even in Jag, some things require the spinning of the pinwheel.
I've been using OS X since 10.0.3, and I've seen it go from being a complete crock into being the best desktop UNIX. But it's still got some ways to go before it's "as good as it can be".
I'm not gonna bitch about hardware. Apple's a computer company and they need a way to drive hardware sales. I just wish they'd been able to offer something better than what they have now.
::I shake my fist at Moto::
And finally. I'm not Anti-OS X. I'm just critical of it. I use it and love it, but am disappointed by certain parts of it. But, as I've seen time and again, every new update brings more and more improvements. I hope that the issues that exist in 10.2.1 will get adressed in 10.2.2, and I look forward to 10.3 or 10.5, or whatever the next BIG release is
Open source is a big issue right now. Freedom of thought vs. freedom to extort is where it's going. Open source is on the side of the right. On the peoples' side. Apple is anti-DRM, but recording engineers are historically one of their biggest buyers. When their bosses start requiring DRM, and Apple won't offer it... where will they turn? MS. Apple won't let that happen. If they hope to survive, they're going to have to relent to the evil that is the RIAA sooner or later. I applaud them for not supporting DRM, and, Hell, I applaud Bill for not including DRM in XP Media Center Edition.
Now... anybody that honestly DOESN'T LIKE OS X... bring it on. We're waitin' for ya.
[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: The Jimmy James X 10.3.6 / Bob ]
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Okay, i dont like OS-X because its a BSD and i prefer Linux. Although simlar... its not what i want. If i get a Mac i will try, but ill probably put Linux on it.
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What can I say. Its proprietary, closed source, and expensive. The best thing to happen to *nix isnt the mac, its linux. Linux is available for more platforms than I can think of, including macs, x86, sparcs, and more. Linux is available 100% free. Linux is not difficult to use, in fact its easy and it is 100% customizable. True, Darwin is open source, but aqua sure as hell isnt, but you can easily get the full source to kde and gnome. My enemy is not apple(yet), it remains to be MS. Basically I dont like Macs for the same reasons I dont like Solaris 9.
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Yea, ThePrecher said it, Linux has somthing for everyone, and if more people contributed to the Open Source community, then we would be better off in the long run. You would be helping people and helping them help you and so on.
If sombody was to spend there life helping the poor, you could hardly call them helping other people a waste of Life. If thats what you think, you are selfish... And that will lead you to being evil. I contribute because it helps other people.
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apple is steve jobs now, and he can just do what he likes. if you like him, good. he probably doesn't like you though. buy his stuff or don't unfortunately for him he is a well meaning but contradictory megalomaniac, which certainly has something to do with the poor guy's personal background.
I am astonished that apple have done so well considering Jobs.
Don't get me wrong, excellent man in the computing industry, great machines from apple, just... it could have been a lot better. it could have sat better on the tongue, it might not have caught in the throat so much, if apple could have wrested free of jobs a bit more. on the other hand, he really has made apple what they are today, in many ways.
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I love OSX, no one can put it down. If your having problems with it then it may have messed up during installation or upgrade, but most likey YOU did it. My OSX jag works perfectly, my OSX 10.1 worked perfectly too. Not one problem. Whilst on Redhat 8 I did the upgrade and after I restarted (did so because I am not used to not having to restart) the XServer wouldn't start, that is bullshit. OSX is easier to use than any other Linux. The GUI is better, smoother, and more stable than X11, and most of all, it has big time apps like Office, Photoshop, Dreamweaver, and Flash.
I have come to the conclusion that Linux is really good for a server, even on slow computers it works fine if u don't run the XServer. and since everything can be monitored with Webmin over the network, u don't even need to touch the computer. OSX can do all of these things, but it needs a fast computer because the GUI always runs. But the biggest problem with having a Mac as a server is that you just want to use the Mac, and that bogs down the server.
[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Billy Gates ]
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hmmmm. about the only open thing on osx is the kernel. and they have alot of binary drivers from what i have heard. by any chance are the specs to osx's quartz open? and does quartz offer network tranparency like X does. and is it going to be added. or can it be added.
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Is there some kind of a GNU/Darwin?
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quote:
Originally posted by Ex Eleven / b0b 2.1:
Is there some kind of a GNU/Darwin?
Yes there is at
http://www.apple.com/macosx/applications/ (http://www.apple.com/macosx/applications/)
hope that address is right, I am not a programmer.
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quote:
Originally posted by psyjax v6.9 /Dave:
Lately I have been noting a decidedly anti-OSX slant from forum regulars. Arguments saying that it isn't customizable enugh, isn't true open source etc.
This is all garbage. OSX is fully customizable just as any UNIX. You have full access to the Darwin underlayer and can mess with it all you want. The Aqua GUI is also very pourus and there are various ways to customize it to your likeing. Apple includes many development tools for OSX ranging from the gcc compilers to the wonderfull Developer Tools sweet.
OSX is potentialy as good as any UNIX, and is surely the BEST desktop UNIX around. Mac users and Linux/*NIX users are on the same teem here and I don't think we should be trashing each other.
But none the less, if you have some kind of Beef with OSX, or any other OS for that matter, at least try to make a valid point with substance. Most of the stuff I have seen tossed around are kind of like half assed arguments and silly OSX sux type crap.
Perhaps maybe you are starting to see the Open Source community for what they really are. They are a bunch of selfish dorks who think that Open Source should control the software industry. Thier way of thinking is if it isn't Open Source it is no-good. They don't just hate MS, they hate any software company who refuse to give thier software away for free. The Open Source community is nothing but a bunch of cheap bastards who aren't willing to pay money for software.
[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]
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quote:
Originally posted by choasforages:
and does quartz offer network tranparency like X does. and is it going to be added. or can it be added.
If you mean the ability to control someone's screen by remote access, ya. Also, Quartz/Aqua can be bypassed entirely, and if you edit the boot file, you can get it not to load at all.
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quote:
Originally posted by Zombie9920:
Perhaps maybe you are starting to see the Open Source community for what they really are. They are a bunch of selfish dorks who think that Open Source should control the software industry. Thier way of thinking is if it isn't Open Source it is no-good. They don't just hate MS, they hate any software company who refuse to give thier software away for free. The Open Source community is nothing but a bunch of cheap bastards who aren't willing to pay money for software.
[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]
I actually believe in closed source third party applications such as games. However my complaints against MS have little to do with the fact that it is closed source, and more to do with their business practices. I dont ask for anything for free, and I actually paid for my copy of linux, and I also paid for several of the applications I use on linux including Quake 3, and Star Office 6.0. Hopefully the money will help contribute to the further development of my favorite open source applications. However, you must notice the benefits of an open source structure including the finding and fixing of bugs and vulnerabilities in a very small time frame.
Do not categorize linux users. You are not one of us and you know absolutely nothing about us. We want the same things as everyone else, but most importantly we want "Choice". Keep that in mind when you look up one day and realize that all the software on your machine was created by Microsoft.
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hear hear.
unfortunately for zombie, he allows his opinions to control him, not the other way around.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum & his insidious little spies:
hear hear.
unfortunately for zombie, he allows his opinions to control him, not the other way around.
There are very few Linux users like you. The problem is, most of the Linux user base consists of kids and young teenagers who do not work and do not have money. Thier lack of money is why they think that every piece of software released should be made available for free. The age of alot of Linux users also shows because the way they act. Truthfully most Linux users that I see at any forum act childish(Note, I said most...not all).
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Originally posted by Calum & his insidious little spies:
hear hear.
unfortunately for zombie, he allows his opinions to control him, not the other way around.
My opinions don't control me, I control my opinions. I am entilted to have whatever opinion I want to have(just like everybody else is entitled to thier opinion). ;)
[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]
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I'm curious, whcih Linux forums did you visit, Zombie? The ones I've visited, the members, with few exceptions, were generally polite and very helpful.
I still think there's a place for proprietary software, and there's benefits for it. But there are also benefits to open-source and/or free software as well. They can co-exist peacefully, and even help each other out indirectly by both of them striving to improve and make the best product possible.
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quote:
Originally posted by Zombie9920:
There are very few Linux users like you. The problem is, most of the Linux user base consists of kids and young teenagers who do not work and do not have money. Thier lack of money is why they think that every piece of software released should be made available for free.
I would sure like to be able to agree with you on this. I wish more kids were using Linux as that would mean there is no reason for it not to be used more in schools, thus saving me more money in taxes. I haven't been able to find any statistics on the web regarding linux demographics, probably because people who use Linux don't usually *want* to be counted. In fact usually people who do not use Linux don't *want* to be counted, but those non-Linux users don't have a lot of say in the matter.
I can only go on my personal experience of who uses Linux. All of the people I personally know who use Linux are business oriented and are between the ages of 25 and 40. Most of these people you will never see on a forum, at least the kinds of forums that you would go to. Of course my kids use Linux, and you certainly won't see them on a forum.
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The age of alot of Linux users also shows because the way they act. Truthfully most Linux users that I see at any forum act childish(Note, I said most...not all).
You don't suppose that you may have initially written a closed minded trolling post that may have triggered a childish response do you? Na, Zombie wouldn't do that....
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quote:
Originally posted by psyjax v6.9 /Dave:
If you mean the ability to control someone's screen by remote access, ya. Also, Quartz/Aqua can be bypassed entirely, and if you edit the boot file, you can get it not to load at all.
Do you know where I can get instructions on editing the boot file?
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quote:
Originally posted by Billy Gates:
Do you know where I can get instructions on editing the boot file?
www.resexcellence.com (http://www.resexcellence.com)
You will have to dig, but it's there, along with a 101 other fucked up things to do to OS X :D