Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => The Lounge => Topic started by: KernelPanic on 15 September 2002, 04:13
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I don't wanna be liek RRS but take a quick look at this:
http://www.timedoctor.org/boycott_winex.php (http://www.timedoctor.org/boycott_winex.php)
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Yeah... that's a real problem... killing ports to Linux isn't bad if it works flawlessly with WineX, the big problem is that it isn't truly OpenSource. (+ people with no credit card to pay $ 15 are basicly screwed)
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quote:
Boycott WineX: We feel that TransGaming's products based on Windows emulation should be boycotted. Here are our reasons why:
* TransGaming writes incredibly enthusiastic pieces of propaganda which are mostly discussing software they did not write. The LGPL wine (the original codebase) has been developed for 9+ years, but TransGaming forked their version very recently, and does not contribute code back.
surely this is not legal. quote:
* TransGaming has consistently claimed that their approach is superior to native porting in every manner. However, native ports are typically more stable and run faster than games in WineX. TransGaming claims that emulation leads to a faster development process, but many native ports have been completed in a matter of weeks or even days.
well obviously native programs will run better than emulated ones, due to one layer less of bullshit between the program and its output! quote:
* TransGaming once promised to give back code to what was Wine, before it changed to the LGPL license. After it changed, they removed all mention of giving back code from their website.
such is the nature of the selfish human. reminds me of lindows... quote:
* Note that other companies, like Lindows, and Codeweavers _are_ giving back code, and being good open source citizens. TransGaming encourages the misconception that their product is not an emulator, despite the fact that the founder of the Wine project refers to it as such. In order to replace the term "emulation", they refer to WineX as a "portability technology", stretching definitions of both "portability" and "technology". If TransGaming really wishes to avoid the term "emulation", they should replace it with a phrase that actually reflects what WineX does, such as "compatibility layer".
spoke too soon! lindows gives code back? well, anyway, it all sounds a bit shifty to me. quote:
* TransGaming's WineX may discourage developers considering native ports from following through with them. Developers may wrongly assume that their game works well enough under WineX that a native version is not necessary.
now this is true and so far is by far the most significant point in my opinion. quote:
* TransGaming has willingly stripped out all methods of debugging the Wine source base in their packaged releases, greatly slowing down the process of fixing bugs.
oh so they are working off the great model of internet exploder. sounds like they emulate more than just Microsoft's operating system... quote:
* Support for games varies wildly between releases, and even their vaunted "DirectX 8.0 support" is already one rev behind and about to be a second rev behind. It still doesn't provide access to all the nice features that the cards, DirectX, and the games support.
so it's not worth the money then, is it? quote:
* Obviously, TransGaming does not, and cannot control the development of DirectX, it's a moving target they can't hit. This is the carrot on the stick for the gamer, to keep you subscribing in the futile hope that some day, the emulation will be near perfect for whatever game you want.
like trying to keep up with Microsoft office file formats... quote:
* TransGaming promises much, yet delivers little. Many people use WineX to play Half-Life and the Counter-Strike modification. This mod is the most popular mod ever. In fact, if you buy the 'Mandrake Gaming Edition' (seemingly billing a non-native WineX "port" of The Sims as a Linux game), the feature list offers Half-Life: Counter-Strike support. Still, there are many problems with the Half-Life emulation. The most notable of these problems is that the menus do not work, causing a significant drop in user-friendliness.
* These same Counter-Strike players couldn't play online for some time. Valve had implemented new anti-cheating software which detected Wine users as cheaters.
that's fucking nice, isn't it! how pathetic. quote:
* As the anti-cheating software demonstrates, TransGaming does not control it's own destiny. If a game works, it is pure coincidence, and it can never be guaranteed that it will work with a future patch.
* There are many, good arguments against Wine(X) from other people, as well as us.
* TransGaming had a dirty little affair with Debian.
* Perhaps the worst problem with TransGaming is the fact they are potentially killing some native ports. WineX already killed a native port of Wizardry 8. The port was in negotiation with Tribsoft, but they stopped negotiating when they found out that it worked (to whatever extent) under WineX
they must have thought people would not pay for the native version. who actually does the research into this sort of thing? quote:
If you feel similarly, we suggest buying native Linux games when you see them in retail stores, and online, at places like TuxGames. Please do not send hate-mail to developers like TimeGate who let rights to their ports go to TransGaming. TimeGate is doing the right thing in offering those rights, it's just a shame that the wrong people got them.
i tend to agree with them on principal, but some of their specifics are a bit fanatical. basically i agree that they are killing native ports and that this is something that, once lost, is hard to claw back. on a larger note, wine is free software, wineX is not. This is not ethical in my opinion. they should distribute all of their source code, and let people decide whether it's worth paying whatever money they ask, not just hold people to ransom for a shitty product that could be a lot better if people could bug check the code.
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You can get it for free but, transgaming have done deals with certain companies like installshield so cetain parts of winex are closed.
Basically you can have the source to a less fuctional version.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
surely this is not legal.
Speaking as somewhat of an expert on the topic (see sig), it is. Up until about 3 months ago, Wine was licensed under a BSD-style license. When a majority of the developers decided to change the license to LGPL, TransGaming took the last code snapshot before the license change and forked it into what is now "ReWind", which retains a BSD license. They are now trying to coerce the people who voted for the license change and contribute to the LGPL tree (these people include most of the top contributors to the project) into dual-licensing their patches under LGPL/BSD, in exchange for TransGaming code being backported to ReWind (where it can be merged into the LGPL tree). Legal? Yes. Ethical? Most definitely not.
(and props go to [email protected] for managing to pull this thread out of thin air and report it to the rest of the gang.)
Edits:
1. The actual BSD-style license that Wine (and now ReWind) are licensed under is the X11.
2. TransGaming itself did not fork ReWind, but rather the developers who preferred the X11 license (some of whom may have been working for TransGaming.)
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: vogon ]
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OH NO! Well this confuses me, I thought Wine/WineX is susposed to be a beautiful addition to the Linux community...
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why did you think that?
it allows you to run windows programs in linux, and that has to be somehow destructive given the current political situation in the coding worlds.
quote:
Originally posted by vogon:
Speaking as somewhat of an expert on the topic (see sig), it is. Up until about 3 months ago, Wine was licensed under a BSD-style license. When a majority of the developers decided to change the license to LGPL, TransGaming took the last code snapshot before the license change and forked it into what is now "ReWind", which retains a BSD license. They are now trying to coerce the people who voted for the license change and contribute to the LGPL tree (these people include most of the top contributors to the project) into dual-licensing their patches under LGPL/BSD, in exchange for TransGaming code being backported to ReWind (where it can be merged into the LGPL tree). Legal? Yes. Ethical? Most definitely not.
(and props go to [email protected] for managing to pull this thread out of thin air and report it to the rest of the gang.)
Edits:
1. The actual BSD-style license that Wine (and now ReWind) are licensed under is the X11.
2. TransGaming itself did not fork ReWind, but rather the developers who preferred the X11 license (some of whom may have been working for TransGaming.)
this is very interesting, and it is exactly the reason why i infinitely prefer the GPL to any BSD style licence. I did not realise that wine was not GPL.
give people the choice to be selfish arseholes, or altruistic saints, and at least one person will turn out to be an arsehole.
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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Wine gives the Windows user more incentive to stay booted in Linux for longer periods of time. It would not do the least bit of good for killing windows if there was no capability to emulate it on Linux. Sure Linux would have "more clearer principles" but Billy would be EVERY BIT as powerful. Many Linux users are dual booters who came from a Windows only enviroment. By being able to emulate alot of programs, they will stay booted in Linux longer.
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that article pissed me off. Whoever wrote it is obviously misdirected into thinking that WineX is supposed to be better than native games... thats phuxored.
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quote:
Originally posted by lazygamer:
Wine gives the Windows user more incentive to stay booted in Linux for longer periods of time. It would not do the least bit of good for killing windows if there was no capability to emulate it on Linux. Sure Linux would have "more clearer principles" but Billy would be EVERY BIT as powerful. Many Linux users are dual booters who came from a Windows only enviroment. By being able to emulate alot of programs, they will stay booted in Linux longer.
i disagree, and i think i have the right since i am one of those dual booters, i do not have wine on my system. i did once, but it never worked for me.
i run windows programs in windows, and linux programs in linux. This is the best way, and here follows the reasoning:
i used to have photoshop installed. i also used to have dreamweaver.
now i use gimp and emacs (although i spent about a week using mozilla composer), because i have made a bit of effort and now i prefer them to their windowy counterparts. If i had got photoshop and dreamweaver to work in wine (i did try them both once) then i might well have never used gimp and emacs, never have learned how to hand write html and never have even realised the benefits of running a program natively.
if people do not make the effort then they will not reap the benefits and no matter how good wine is, that will not change.
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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i am a dual booter and i hate to boot into windows. I run as many windows programs that i like as possible in wine. I only boot into windows for listening to music becausei cant get my damn onboard sound to work in Linux.
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WineX also makes sense for playing some games that don't even work on Windows. For example, I wanted to play Resident Evil(PC version) awhile back. Woulden't work on Windows XP, woulden't even work on Windows 98SE.
I know what's gonna be said, "get a console! Especially for a console game!". Well, RE for the PC has better graphics and loadtimes, and proper gore for one thing. But I can also pirate games or run pirated PS or N64 games on an emulator. That is the big advantage over consoles, you have the option to pirate and get a free lunch.
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the thing i hate about consoles is that the AI almost always sux ass in console and is way better on computers. Have you seen RTCW or Half-Life or UT on a console. I think half-life has some kickass AI (too bad its only for windows...those bastards).
Freakin AI in consoles is soo phuxoring retarded.
You also have the ability to update computers and make the games run and look way better than consoles.
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: The Master of Reality / Bob ]
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quote:
many problems with the Half-Life emulation. The most notable of these problems is that the menus do not work, causing a significant drop in user-friendliness.
dude are you snorting crack? my best friend uses Wine to play Team Fortress (it's a mod for Half-Life just like Counter-Strike is) and it works perfectly, all the menus work and everything. Winex is just Wine with some driver support. i had Winex before (found a link to it for free on winehq.org once) and it worked perfectly as well.
[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Chooco ]
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with directX support, surely?
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blah blah blah... too much info for my head...
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quote:
dude are you snorting crack? my best friend uses Wine to play Team Fortress (it's a mod for Half-Life just like Counter-Strike is) and it works perfectly, all the menus work and everything. Winex is just Wine with some driver support. i had Winex before (found a link to it for free on winehq.org once) and it worked perfectly as well.
Yay! Now someday I might be able to say "I r pwn joo n00b f@g!" in Counter-Strike.... on a Linux boot. (http://smile.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by The Master of Reality / Bob:
Whoever wrote it is obviously misdirected into thinking that WineX is supposed to be better than native games...
Perhaps we have good reason for believing that, seeing as how TransGaming takes every opportunity to pitch WineX as a "portability technology" that "allows ports to be finished in a fraction of the time."
Joe CTO is going to hear this and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He won't bother with a native port, and just direct all of the Linux users to use WineX instead of asking them for a port.
Now, don't get me wrong; I think Wine is an admirable project. But what happens when MS changes getTickCount() to return time in femtoseconds, or revs DirectX to 9.0? Don't say it can't happen; ask the OS/2 team.
If we continue to rely on WineX for all of our applications to run, then Gates has us right where he wants us: utterly dependent on his closed APIs for our gaming fix, and perfectly poised to "accidentally" break something in Win32 and give all of us the shaft.
In addition, TransGaming has been less than a stellar citizen of the open-source community, repeatedly breaking promises to give code back to the people who initially poured the foundations, and instead opting to make money off of their contributions by releasing them only under a restrictive license, and threatening action against all those who try to package them.
If you want to get some of your games now instead of backing native ports, then go right ahead. Just don't expect us to back you up when the shit hits the fan.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
with directX support, surely?
no man, he plays the game in OpenGL mode. i'm not even sure if D3D supports Linux.... ???
maybe that's what WineX is.
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quote:
Originally posted by lazygamer:
Wine gives the Windows user more incentive to stay booted in Linux for longer periods of time. It would not do the least bit of good for killing windows if there was no capability to emulate it on Linux. Sure Linux would have "more clearer principles" but Billy would be EVERY BIT as powerful. Many Linux users are dual booters who came from a Windows only enviroment. By being able to emulate alot of programs, they will stay booted in Linux longer.
... and continue to purchase and/or warez Win32 programs, even though they're not using Windows, instead of asking the Helping Friendly C Guru in their neighborhood to help port it to Linux.
But, you argue, surely any apps, emulated or not, are better than no apps at all; and you would be wrong. A software company, always looking out for its bottom line, will only port a game natively if there's a large native market for it.
WineX *does not* count as a native market, nor does it enlarge any native market that exists, as Microsoft can introduce API "flaws" or "incompatibilities" at the drop of a hat, leaving people who want to play Daikatana II or Serious Sam III in WineX out in the cold. And most WineX users would rather reinstall Windows than not be able to play their beloved warezed copy of Counter-Strike.
The only true way to enlarge the native market is to pester software companies to port their games to Linux, or to write Linux-only games attractive enough to pull users from Windows; the only true reason to use WineX is if you have games written by companies that have proven to be hostile to Linux portage (Valve, Blizzard, Microsoft), that you can't do without, and that are your sole reason for not nuking your Windows partition.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chooco:
no man, he plays the game in OpenGL mode. i'm not even sure if D3D supports Linux.... ???
maybe that's what WineX is.
IIRC, the bug with the menus only comes up in Direct3D mode, and yes, that's what WineX is for.
[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: vogon ]
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quote:
Originally posted by The Master of Reality / Bob:
i am a dual booter and i hate to boot into windows. I run as many windows programs that i like as possible in wine. I only boot into windows for listening to music becausei cant get my damn onboard sound to work in Linux.
What onboard sound? nForce, Intel 81x, VIA, or generic AC97?
(And I believe the Cult of Bob is just a lame ripoff of the Church of the SubGenius (http://subgenius.com), of which I am a member, but I'm not sure of it, because the Cult of Bob Web site's down.)
[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: vogon ]
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quote:
Originally posted by vogon:
If we continue to rely on WineX for all of our applications to run, then Gates has us right where he wants us: utterly dependent on his closed APIs for our gaming fix, and perfectly poised to "accidentally" break something in Win32 and give all of us the shaft.
In addition, TransGaming has been less than a stellar citizen of the open-source community, repeatedly breaking promises to give code back to the people who initially poured the foundations, and instead opting to make money off of their contributions by releasing them only under a restrictive license, and threatening action against all those who try to package them.
You are a wise man (or woman)...
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quote:
Originally posted by void main:
You are a wise man (or woman)...
Man, at least last time I checked. *checks again* Yeah.